As an EE Engineering Technologist, I have been servicing the automotive manufacturing industry for a little over 18 years. My work has been largely involved with investigating problems associated with Computer Numeric Controls and their associated inverter-controlled motors. Recently, I have been attempting to find a portable piece of equipment to analyze the state of a motor's winding while it is still in the field. Most of these motors ( the important ones anyway ) are fed with PWM inverters. I do have a concern with using a tester ( high voltage )that could potentially finish off a weak or contaminated winding resulting in an immediate interruption to production. Afterall, a PdM program should facilitate scheduled down-time and not force it.

This led me to take a close look at Low-Voltage Testers. The concept of looking for changes in reactance of a winding with no potentially damaging results was very exciting.

I scheduled my first demo of this type of equipment with a rep from ALL-Test. No particular reason why I started with these folks other than possibly they seemed to offer a low-price entry level product worth looking at. The following was some of the feedback that I sent the rep after a demonstration of the ALL-Test 31 and the ALL-Test IV 2000 products:

Now the first motor that we tested ( 15Hp, 600V, 3ph ), which for me was the biggest letdown, was one that originally was tested without the rotor. The readings of both ALL-Test 31 and ALL-Test IV indicated, according to the rep, to indicate a good stator winding. This stator by the way had failed a Baker surge test miserably ( one phase could not go above 140V before arcing out turn-turn ).
Suspecting that the readings were misleading due to a missing rotor, we ultimately reassembled that motor and tested it with almost the same results as when it was unassembled. In reality, the majority of motors I would test would be during PdM audits and thus completely assembled and in operation.
The initial rotor-less test resulted in a single digit difference ( both tester readouts ) in one phase as seen in test PH1 but this difference went away when the motor was reassembled. That motor was a complete failure on the surge tester which was done twice. The customer brought the motor in due to overloads tripping.
If I had used these testers in front of the customer I would likely have indicated that the problem was elsewhere since my Megger would have shown no short to ground and the ALL-Test would have passed the windings. This would have been a lost customer for sure.

If the ALL-Test ( we tried both offline units ) could not see this particular defect on a motor that is absolutely not working then I have to ask how many motors am I likely to overlook during a PdM inspection that ARE still working. You have to realize that if I am going to sell people on using my services which use ( expensive ) instruments then it can't work just sometimes. That would be like me using a multimeter that sometimes shows the correct voltage and drawing conclusions on circuits based on that. I do have pieces of test equipment with significant limitations in how and what they can do but these novelty tools were relatively inexpensive therefore I dont mind having them sit around on standby.

The second motor tested was an old servo motor ( about 2kw, 200V ) that had been lying around for years on the floor of my shop. I really had no idea of what it's condition was but I wanted to see the impact of servo magnets on the readings. Sure enough the readings were not very good until it was suggested that we use two instruments in tandem to compensate for rotor magnet position. This worked like a charm and we got three identical readings.
Until this test was done I was not quite sure why ALL-Test kept implying that the two testers were really meant to work in tandem and not exclusive of each other. While this might not always be true, it was true for my needs. The ALL-Test 31 is nice in that it offers real-time readings but unfortunately you need the ALL-Test IV to then automatically record the values. You can MANUALLY record the results after using the AT31 but then you risk introducing errors in the recordings and it also becomes time-consuming. I do need to be able to quickly record results of data collected or the PdM inspection would just move along too slow. I also would need the live rotor readings of the 31 to do all the servo inspections.
This brings up the problem of having to swap between the two instruments to carry out the tests. The idea of having to reposition the servo motor while on the machine ( mechanically difficult ) and then add to it swapping leads between two testers and possibly mixing something up along the way is quite frankly crazy.

The third motor tested was an open-frame fan motor which had been used as a shop blower motor for many years. The windings upon visual inspection were quite dirty and contaminated. The motor was removed from service working just fine. The All-Testers reported three identical good windings with no indication that there were dirty windings. This was a concern because I figured dirt on the windings would affect the inductance or capacitance but I suppose there can be a condition such as this where the dirt is uniformly distributed across the windings enough to give the appearance of balanced windings.
I suppose if I had readings of this motor when it was clean and new then I might have been able to see a change. In reality, having a database of thousands of customer motors in "baseline" clean condition to compare to is not going to be too feasible.

The fourth motor tested was a dismantled sewage pump motor which coincidentally was the original reason the ALL-Test was designed for ( as I was told by the rep ). The windings were fried and we were able to clearly identify that it was so.

I went home and reviewed my experience with the ALL-Test equipment. The idea of just buying the 31 or the IV was out the window since they seemed to both have features that I would need. The equipment quite honestly has the appearance of hobby equipment and by that I mean it does not look like it would take kindly to a 3 foot fall on a concrete floor. To me it seems built more for the lab room and not meant to be placed around machinery where it might fall. ALL-Test is very clear that their equipment would likely be damaged if it is connected to an energized or capacitor-charged circuit. The idea of having the tester plugged into a charged circuit ( residual capacitance even is common ) and then being fried is not acceptable. All the test equipment that I take into the field is hardened for the very occassional "whoops". Even my Flir Infrared camera can be dropped 3 feet on to a concrete floor. Would I ever do it? Hell no but the salesman did right in front of me as a confidence test. The probes included with the ALL-Testers are inferior to those found on quality test equipment and prone to false readings if you do not take the time to squeeze them into the conductors. ALL-Test might consider replacing them with quality leads for the small difference in price.

The instruments according to documentation carry no safety standards that ensure that I do not get injured in the event of coming in contact with an energized circuit. The salesrep pointed out that it had a CE rating. CE is really more of a manufacturing standard and it amazes me that anyone would let service personel use this test equipment anywhere but possible in a controlled lab environment. CAT ratings on test equipment are there to ensure that a meter is not going to 'grenade' in an operator's face in the event of a fault. I would suppose OSHA ( labour safety regulators ) would have a field day investigating an injury resulting from the use of non-safety tested equipment.

After all that you are drawing the conclusion that I hated the testers. Nope not at all. I think they show a lot of promise and I intend to do some more research to see if my experience was really just a bunch of bad coincidences. I doubt it but in the end I do need to find a solution for motor analysis that does not involve potentially destructive surge testing. The ALL-Test instruments ( and possibly all the low-voltage testers in the industry ) are too expensive for what they offer. Had we been able to draw four definitive conclusions to the state of those four test motors then I would likely have given out a purchase order that day ( okay maybe the next day since I always like to cool off ). I would place either of the instruments in my box of novelty tools but that was not what I was looking for. The quest continues....

SUMMARY of ALL-Test 31 and ALL-Test IV 2000

Pros
1) non-destructive tester
2) portable
3) easy to use

Cons
1) inconclusive results seem likely to be common
2) requires multiple testers to complete one motor inspection
3) not hardened to falls or energized circuits
4) not safety tested
5) weak clip-on leads

Excellent write up DanS. Thanks. I'm sure I will be referring back to your post.

I agree, that's great info. Thanks for taking the time to record and report your experiences.

If you've been watching the forum, you know there has been some lively discussion about the claims associated with that brand.

It's good that you have contributed some facts toward that discussion. My reading of your first case would be that "inconclusive results seem likely to be common" is a charitable description. It seems to me that the results were just plain wrong (not just inconclusive) on the first motor and perhaps the third. Or did I misunderstand?

Whether or not "potentially destructive" testing (such as surge test and dc step voltage / hi-pot) makes sense depends on your situation. One thing to consider is the the costs of failure during test vs the cost of failure during operation.

We have 8 motors, any of whose failure in operation would cost at least $10 million. Failure during test would cost about $1 million. If I can prevent just one in-service failure even at the cost of several test failures, I am way ahead of the game. Potentially destructive testing such as dc step voltage test makes sense to us for these motors. Yes, we only do the testing at a time when we have enough plant downtime to replace the motor if needed and when a spare is available.

We have some other motors in a very non-critical system that have susbstantial redundancy. Failure of one of those motors results in no cost other than the cost to repair/rewind. It would be foolish for us to perform potentially destructive testing on those motors since it would not create any cost avoidance associated with reliability, but could certainly accelerate costs for rewind.

One premise of the test strategy for surge testing and dc step hi-pot testing is that no substantial degradation occurs if a motor passes the test without indication of anomaly during the test. I believe that is the case, but not everyone agrees.

Of those people that do perform in-plant hi-pot and surge testing, my sense is that it is limited mostly to higher horsepower and higher voltage machines. (maybe 4kv and above). The test equipment is more expensive and more difficult to use and perhaps the cost/effort is not warranted on the smaller machines.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: electricpete,

Well my predicament is that I can be looking down the line of 30 CNC milling machines and can probably count on at least 25 different primary spindle motors ( AC driven by VFD ). Each motor has a typical value of 7 to 25 thousand bucks and due to the variation in brands and models, the customer is not likely to have spares. I would like to have a diagnostic tool that will allow me to successfully determine if there are heavy contaminations in the windings or even the breakdown of the insulation. I need to be able to do this without killing for example three machines on the spot.

If the motor analysis, using high voltage testers, is going to kill off motors in production then the customer might as well just run to fail. If I am going to use low voltage testers and just catch a few problems then I look incompetant when a motor runs-to-fail the day after I have certified it is in good health.

This is a real conundrum but might explain why some of the local automotive plants have moved towards using IR Thermography exclusively in their PdM.

Dan

quote:

This led me to take a close look at Low-Voltage Testers. The concept of looking for changes in reactance of a winding with no potentially damaging results was very exciting.

It really looks exciting and years ago I was excited too. Not any more. Just recently I was called by a customer to check a 200 hp Reliance motor. The motor was supposed to be in locked condition for about 10 minutes with variable frequency drive on. No other details, just a word that the motor was hot as a firecracker. I only had on hand 25.5 Volt 60 Hz source and during the single-phase test the current varied between 5.8 and 6.2 Amps. The current variation was a reason for concern despite the fact that the impedance calculated from those data is still extremely high. It was hence decided to test the motor in the shop including the load test.
With single-phase test over 100 Volts the current variation evaporated completely. Following load test at full load current and the current analysis showed the rotor in perfect condition (60.5 dB). My measurement at 25.5 Volts 60 Hz was sufficiently wrong (due to voltage being too low) to lead to erroneous conclusions. Yet the low voltage tester would have to reach 255 Volts at 600 Hz to induce the same flux density. They do not reach even 10% of that!
I have shown in
http://maintenanceforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7161085912/m/7071076492/p/1
how the reactance varies with testing voltage (see file “reactance line to line.pdf). Also in
http://maintenanceforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7161085...831011813#1831011813
(open-closed comparison.pdf) is shown how is the reactance of the motor affected by a simple fact of the rotor slots being open or closed.
Those tests are extremely simple to perform. Anybody can do it for himself/herself in very short time, and I wish somebody did! But let’s go to the PdMA for their proof of the same: www.pdma.com/PDF/CS0402.pdf
22 out of 51 bars were broken and it did not show on the RIC test (RIC test is an impedance test). There were test results in that file that showed the overview of the inductances. The imbalance was minimal despite scores of broken bars. Unfortunately that part was lately deleted, but you can see the inductance variation on the RIC graph that was not deleted.
Finally look at another PdMA write up on the rotor testing: http://www.pdma.com/Rotortest.html
I am really fond of this write up. And I have to admit that I return to it once a while to look if it is still there. And indeed it is! So read for yourself in paragraph “Testing with motor disassembled”: “If a rotor bar is broken, the alternating voltage at the location of the break will cause the thin piece of metal to vibrate.”
Those champions of low voltage testing do not have a clue how was the rotor test performed in past 100 years: When the bar is broken, the peace of metal does NOT vibrate, it DOES vibrate on the GOOD bar. Period.
Or how about another pearl from the same write up: “Changes in the rotor health do not change the number of turns or the cross sectional length (A) of the core. It does however, affect the permeability (m) of the air gap surrounding the stator windings.”
The relative permeability of the air is equal to 1 anywhere and under any condition. Undoubtedly it is the same through the universe. One exception must be Tampa, Florida.
Of course the confidence in the low voltage testing is getting a severe beating reading the above.

So if you are looking for a tester that will tell you the condition of the winding from the changes in reactance, it will be a long haul. If you are looking for a Low Voltage Tester that will tell you the condition of the winding from the changes in reactance, don’t waste your time.
jank

Hmm, okay I can feel bile rising up from my guts...

So essentially after doing a LOT of reading here and on many linked sites I have come to the conclusion that IF IT IS WORKING -- DONT MESS WITH IT.

Reasoning...

HIGH-VOLTAGE testing

1) not portable to move around an industrial facility
2) possibly destructive resulting in immediate downtime
3) high-voltage impulse does not really penetrate far enough into the winding to see the whole picture anyway.

LOW-VOLTAGE testing

1) I have seen first hand that the technology does not see the obvious ( cripes it missed a 600V winding that shorted at 140V which is exactly the kind of faults that we are trying to find in the field ).

2) Low voltage is just not going to bridge the air gap of weak insulation which is what I am really looking for.

Question: Is automated High-voltage DC step test a possible comprimise? I realize that it could also be potentially destructive but at least it seems that there is a chance that a problem could be identified at the lower test voltages prior to punching out the winding. Will this technology work on sub-100 hp motors? Is it even available in a portable package? The quest continues....

The bile rising in your guts is really troublesome. I don’t know what it means but I would hate to be the reason for the elevation.
Your search for a gadget that tells you the condition of the winding from the reactances prompted me to write something that proves that the reactances will not tell you anything about the condition of the winding. There are other influences that render the reactance totally useless, unless you have a hard turn-to-turn, phase-to-phase or phase to ground short.
If I were in your situation, for the condition of the winding I would use a meggar test, PI test (I would say 1000 Volts), and the Surge test also at 1000 Volts.
The panic about those tests being potentially destructive is largely induced by the Low Voltage proponents. It is a good policy to scare the heck out of you so that you go and buy their stuff. If your 460 or 575 Volt motor cannot take 1000 volts surge it will fail tomorrow instead of today (while being tested). You should inform your customers about that. If they can’t understand that, do not test their motor.
The surge test penetrates the winding just as far as any fast rising over-voltage. If there is a week insulation spot deep inside winding it will not be reached by the test voltage, but it will not be reached by the over-voltage from the power line either. But I can guarantee to you that the voltage turn-to-turn will be much larger then the pathetic 0.25 volts (or something like that on low voltage motor) from the low voltage tester. And you can carry the surge tester no problem, I do it all the time.
jank

The bile rising has probably more to do with our Southern Ontario water than my frustration weeding through all this motor voodoo.

Thanks for the feedback, Jank.

Does your surge tester offer this DC step test or do you just manually make a decision on-site to do a reduced applied-volts surge test?

Do you mind me asking what tester it is that you find portable enough to carry around in the field?

I carry older model of Baker ST106A (Hi pot + Surge). 45 lb, but I need the exercise once a while and I don’t go for troubleshooting too often. Beside that I carry low resistance AVO meter, AVO megger, CSI analyzer 2020 for vibration and current analysis, also I have on hand variable transformer 3 kVA, and low voltage transformer if the need develops to test the current balance (up to 100 Amp), plus other little gadgets. It gives my vehicle good traction even in the middle of the winter. Tomorrow is supposed to be close to –40 oC, so I will appreciate the load on the slippery roads, thinking with love about David Suzuki and Al Gore.
But if you want to buy some equipment I would recommend going to Baker. Not that I know too much about them, but I believe they do not compromise their reputation by selling BS. You can probably get a neat package that will do most of what you need.
jank

This is a great thread! Years ago I purchased a PDMA instrument and an Alltest Pro. Through diligent marketing, I convinced various customers to hire me to test motors--well over 1,000 motor tests. After a couple years, I was completely convinced I could not predict a stator fault with a low voltage tester. I stopped offering this type of testing service. I see little use for the All-Test. The PDMA off line tester has limited value--good micro-ohmmeter test and useful PI/DA display. But the holy grail of motor testing, predicting winding failure with low voltage, from my experience, does not exist. I second jank's comments concerning Baker.

Absolutely
you can check my queries regarding All Test Pro in Topic ALLTEST PRO USERS. Even No one is there who can give prompt reply for those queris and now i am sure this is a big thread.

thanks Testtech for sharing your exp.

Que Cont

I just had a discussion with our Electrical System Owner about the Baker Surge Tester the other day. We've had some mixed results with the Baker AWA 2.2 surge tests showing small 480v motors as bad when they weren't. He called Baker on the results; he didn't feel Baker had a solid answer as to why it occurs. Baker said it has trouble with some small motors.

quote:

Originally posted by jkays:
I made a call on this motor 3 months before it failed with the MCA and the Vibration guy had it four months before and I got it with my Ir camera One month before it failed.

I really can’t wait for the results of your research. This problem showed simultaneously in vibration analysis, MCA and the thermal analysis. I am really at loss what it can be. What sets this case apart from all other ones is, that it showed severe enough in all three technologies to make a call.
I have also looked through your web site, but unfortunately did not find any case related to the MCA. Will you kindly direct me to the proper page. It should not pose any problems since you test hundreds of motors.
And it would be much more beneficial to all readers if you post some details. We have heard assurances that this technology is really great, but never hear any details. Something what I would like to hear might be in this range: “ A customer was complaining about a poor performance of a 100 hp motor. So I hooked up my low voltage tester, and sure enough, there was indication of a short in the winding. The motor was brought to the shop and lo and behold there was a short right in the crown.” The motor was rewound and everybody lived happily ever after.
I have never heard anything like that! I only heard assurances: “Oh, it is a great tool”, or “you have to know the limitations”, or “you have to use multiple technology”.
I am looking forward to see some details from you.
jank

Jan, I must say "Thank you" for your last post.

And question to Jeremy.
quote
The Snell Group does hundreds of motors using MCA Online and Offline everyday and it is a grate tool to use in assessing the health of a low and high voltage motors.
quote

What current and potential transformer (CT and PT) are used for high voltage motors (I mean frequency response of those CT's and PT's)?

Victor

Hello All,

As a long time viewer of his forum I must admit that the ability for anonymous posters to attack particular vendors is not really sitting very well with me.

As a representative to several lines of PdM equipment I have seen many instances were reps were taken to task for making complimentary posts for products they represent. I have no problem with this and always identify myself as a salesman if I am posting regarding a particular product I represent.

So on the other hand if a poster wants to take a particular product or technology to task it would only be fair if that poster also identified himself.

The old hidden agenda motive works for the good and bad. Be pretty easy for someone with a problem or a competitor to a particular vendor to make negative comments.

I have no problem with folks challenging vendors or technologies but I would ask that you identify yourself so that everything would be out in the open.

Best Regards,
Marty Wilkins,
Southeast Reliability, LLC
(225) 328-9334

quote:

Originally posted by Marty Wilkins:
Hello All,

As a long time viewer of his forum I must admit that the ability for anonymous posters to attack particular vendors is not really sitting very well with me.

As a representative to several lines of PdM equipment I have seen many instances were reps were taken to task for making complimentary posts for products they represent. I have no problem with this and always identify myself as a salesman if I am posting regarding a particular product I represent.

So on the other hand if a poster wants to take a particular product or technology to task it would only be fair if that poster also identified himself.

The old hidden agenda motive works for the good and bad. Be pretty easy for someone with a problem or a competitor to a particular vendor to make negative comments.

I have no problem with folks challenging vendors or technologies but I would ask that you identify yourself so that everything would be out in the open.

Best Regards,
Marty Wilkins,
Southeast Reliability, LLC
(225) 328-9334

It is not very hard to figure out who is Marty Wilkins talking about. I have no doubts that I am the one “with a problem”. And I really have to admit that I have a bunch of problems with low voltage testing. Most of the problems that I have with low voltage testing were described on this board to the last detail. Surprisingly, I have not heard anything from him and I have not heard from mostly anybody.
This is a site for free exchange of ideas. It is not site for people who want to make profit. The essential condition for free exchange of ideas is that the poster does not have to be afraid of posting the idea. The anonymity is the assurance.
I am asking you now, Marty Wilkins, what are you going to do with the information about my identity? Are going to seek a legal advice? Could you elaborate for a while why you need my identity? How come you do not need the identity for a guy who does agree with your views?
As I have said above, every doubt I have ever expressed on this board is supported by hard evidence. Why don’t you beat it? Why don’t you start with the vibrating blade on the broken bar, as PdMA teaches? That is a technical challenge that the Southeast Reliability should know something about. I am not interested in motor count that you have tested. I am not interested in thousands of satisfied customers. I am interested in the science of the low voltage testing.
jank

I have been using the All-Test 31 & IV units for 5 years now; along with a surge tester, tan delta & capacitance analyzer, AC hi-pot, DC hi-pot, 10 kV insulation tester, etc. (over 14 years for the rest). We use these instruments for testing new coils made in our coil shop, motors that come in for rewinds, as well as for assessment of clients’ motors & generators at site. I would like to describe my experience with the All-Test instruments as under:

Negatives:
1. All-Test claims that it can detect winding contamination & overheating by comparing the impedance & inductance values of the three phases. Does not work! We have often found severe contamination using IR, PI, DD & tan delta which was confirmed physically; but AT-IV never picked it up.

2. AT-IV selects the test frequency by itself. Sometimes, it will choose a different test frequency for one of the phases. The result thus looks like severe impedance unbalance, which is incorrect. All-Test claims that this is actually an indication of early deterioration of the insulation but could never explain why. I also did not get correlation with the other tests.

3. AT-IV specifies a resistance measurement range from 1 Ω to 999 Ω, however it displays values down to 0.001 Ω. These lower range values are often incorrect & should be cross-checked with a proper micro-ohmmeter.

4. The variations in phase angle & current frequency response are supposed to indicate inter-turn shorts; however they can be due to broken rotor bars also. Doing a rotor test is essential whenever such variations are encountered.

5. The impedance measurement technique across DC armatures’ commutator segments does not really work. More than once; I have picked up armature faults using a high current DC source for the drop test but the All-Test results were inconclusive.

6. The IR measurement is way too low, especially on the AT-IV. You need to use a proper megger for this measurement.

Positives:
1. Works very well for detecting rotor bar damage. We do on-line ESA using the EMPATH & run a cross-check with the AT-IV. Most often, whenever we get strong PPF sidebands, we can also see the non-repetitiveness in the impedance as the rotor is being turned. The ESA test is more sensitive though.

2. Works well for detection of shorted windings. The high frequency impedance & phase angle measurements generally show variations in these cases. Found a rotor fault in a 2.5 MW generator last month, confirmed using the surge tester. Similarly, correctly identified defective rotor coils in a 5.1 MW synchronous motor last year. We regularly find these kinds of faults in stators that come in the workshop (typically ranging from 50 kW to 2-3 MW).

3. All-Test only recommends that the unbalance in phase angle & current frequency response be checked to detect interturn shorts. However, we have been seeing some cases wherein these absolute values also change with a drop in the IR & PI & come back to the baseline values after cleaning & dry-out.

Comparison with High Voltage Testing:
1. IR, PI, DD & tan delta are the way to go for detection of contamination, voids & PD. MCA just does not qualify.

2. I have blown out motor & generator windings during AC hi-pot testing. Has never happened in a surge test till date, but it can be unnerving.

3. The surge test is good for detecting interturn shorts; however the results can be very misleading if the rotor is inside. Works much better if the motor is in dismantled condition.

4. I do believe that the Baker surge testers that are being recommended have a slow rise time & do not discharge sufficient pulses into the winding to detect weakened insulation (no issues with shorted turns). PJ Surge Testers are the only company to claim compliance with IEEE 522-2004.


Personal Opinion:
The instruments are good for a quick check on the rotor bar condition; as well as for getting an indication of turn-to-turn shorts. Would not rely on them for loose connections, overheated windings or ground insulation condition. The AT-IV is okay for route data collection, but the AT-31 (much cheaper) is a far better diagnostic tool with the automated rotor test & the adjustable test frequencies.

Regards,

Aditya

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Aditya,

From the Author of "Rotor Testing with MCE":

Giving Mr. Janks some credit I think some additional research on the growler test method may have been productive back in 1998 when I wrote this article. The reference to a vibrating hack saw blade would have been better suited for testing of a DC armature rather than an AC induction rotor. A combination of magnetic particles and the growler would have been a better reference for use on AC induction squirrel cage rotors. Additionally, my reference to rotor health affecting the permeability of the air gap surrounding the stator winding could have used some better editing. A better explanation would have been to reference the increase in flux density resulting from the loss of opposing flux from the open bar causing a change in the permeability of the surrounding area not just the air gap. For certain neither of these modification would change the subject matter or general message of this article. But we are thankful for the free technical editing...

Noah Bethel, CMRP
Product Development Mgr.
PdMA Corporation

Folks,

I have no desire to start an ongoing debate with anyone on this board. And I will leave the technical arguements to folks much more knowledgeable than I. I do represent one of the low-voltage guys, PdMA, and I am proud to say I do have many happy and successful customers. We meet every May on the beaches of sunny Florida and would invite anyone wanting to learn more about our technology to join us.

My intent was to point out that in order to have a useful and meaningful forum to share and discuss opininions it would be valueable to know where the opinions are coming from, this would apply to opinions coming from both sides of an issue. I don't have a problem with anyone posting an opinion I just want to consider the source.

This is all I will have to say on the matter, as an old friend would say,

Thanks and have a good day,

Marty