I have been using the EMPATH (old & new) for over 8 years now and am quite happy with it.

Recently, I had bid for a service contract where the competitors used PdMA & All-Test systems, had made a comparison then. It may seem biased and I welcome feedback from other sources.

There was a study between PdMA & Baker regarding motor efficiency calculations, that too is attached.

The current EMPATH software does have some drawbacks regarding automated analysis for low speed motors (750 RPM & below) & bearing analysis. I believe these are supposed to be corrected in the next software version. I still prefer the old EMPATH (002) compared to the new one though.

Regards,

Aditya

Non-Intrusive_Motor_Efficiency_Esimators.pdf (1,149 Kb, 119 downloads)

Thank you Aditya for your answer.
It is foggy to me...
I read the attached documents and it seems that the Explorer is much more better than the MCe Max of PdMA.

I like the Manager from Framatome Don Ferree; he seems to listen more the customer needs.
In the other hand, Baker & PdMA cover a large range of customers compared to EMPATH 2000.

There is a big gap between these 3 companies; I cannot make a mistake investing in the wrong on-line system.

Can you give some insights about the old EMPATH (002), compared to the new one. Why this version is better than the last one?

What I fear is that EMPATH 2000 fits more for Nuclear Facilities than for other Business like Cement, Cars, Food, Areospace Companies but I don't get why?

I spent two intensive days reading and analyzing manuals users for the EMPAT 2000 and my conclusion was that the for a predictive Maintenance the softawre is weak.
Maybe I am Wrong!
Other Comments are more than welcome!
Thanks,

Today, in France it is snowing!
Sophie

Bonjour Sophie,

If you want to discuss application specifics, and a few additional possibilities, drop me a mail at info@vibra-k.com

En français or in English, as you please, but Montréal, well, ...

Sophie,

I have only seen the PdMA products at trade shows & played around with their software, nothing exciting over there. Baker's latest version for DC motors does seem exciting.

I know Don Ferree for many years, he sure is a good guy to work with. What I like about Framatome is that they are up front: no hidden costs or accessories, no extra for additional software licenses or maintenance agreements. Besides, I can get the latest updates on-line. I know that Framatome is relatively unknown, but they were working on this stuff way before anyone else (back from the ORNL and B & W Nuclear Technologies days).

I use our EMPATH units mostly for petrochemicals, power, fertilizer, cement, chemical & steel plants and have not had any issues with the tests. I guess they just don't believe in advertising.

The new EMPATH 2000 has many new features compared to the older EMPATH 002. However, the older version had a much cleaner & simplified user interface, less clicks required for the same operations and was glitch-free. Cannot say that about the new version. While our people got the hang of the old one in days, the new one takes a few months to be comfortable.

I did not attach the comparison between the EMPATH, All-Test & PdMA units earlier, the same is now attached.

Regards,

Aditya

EMPATH_vs._AT-POL_II_vs._Emax.doc (66 Kb, 62 downloads)

Thank you to All of You,

You are wonderful!
I spent the last week to study EMPATH 2000, EXPLORER Series & MCE max. I was wondering if a software version on-line and /or off-line exists able to do both electrical and vibratory analysis.

European Businesses Plants are looking for this kind of product to diminish their costs; moreover, that spectral ( sinusoidales) curves analysis are complementary and that phenomena (squirrel cage) are similar.
This week, I will study what SKF offers.

Any Suggestions!
take care, Sophie

I have heard from Don Ferree that they are going to merge the EMPATH with the Metravib (stell dB) product. James Zhuge of Crystal Instruments too is working on a similar project. No clue about when either of those two might be launched though.

Explorer does take vibration measurements, however it lacks portability and I cannot see it being used as a vibration data collector.

Regards,

Aditya

Thanks again,

Hi Guys,

Who has ever conducted or read a Marketing Survey about the market & products'repartition between the huge groups like Emerson, Bently, Baker Instrument, PdmA?
My job conducts me to analyse the Motor Diagnostic system off-line & on-line and also the companies that offer a combination of electrical & vibratory analysis on strategic Induction and DC Motors.

Thanks,

Have you ever established a list of the major causes of motor failures ( bearings, entrefer, misalignment & bent shaft, ground isolation, turn insulation, bracing, frame ) and the costs associated with.

Do you think that companies such as Baler, PdMA, Framatome must market internationally their products through a condition monitoring /predictive maintenance and not through electrical instrumentation channels.

I heard that a company should develop a combined system (VA + ESA). To your point of view what should be the best channel to inform people like you and sell at the optimum their system?

For instance, until now, they do not pertain to any big association like the IEEE.

Have a good day,
sophie

Sophie, I'm curious, what does your company do?
(I didn't like the way my original post read, so I edited it.)

Questions for you to consider:
1) Are your motors started often or do they run continuously?
2) Do your motors start loads with high start-up torques?
3) Do you have large motors or mostly smaller, say, under 175 hp?
4) Does your company have a mechanical vibration program? If so, is it a mature program? How ofter do they take readings?
5) Does your company perform off-line testing on your motors? How often?

My personal feeling is that these questions play an important part of making your decision. Your answers can indicate purchase, sometimes justify holding off, or even not making the expensive purchase.

For instance, many of our most important motors run continuously in an HVAC application. Many of the other important motors are controlled by VFD. I doubt you'll ever see a rotor bar problem in either of these duty applications. If there ever is, our mechanical vibration program will pick it up easily. Broken rotor bar detection is usually a big selling point of on-line motor tester salespeople.

A good mechanical vibration program will pick up pending bearing failures much more quickly then an online motor analyzer. Same for soft foot, misalignment, loose belts, bad couplings, etc.

Most of our remaining motors are in a very clean, regulated 20C temperature, 50% humidity environment and we are a batch operation so motor testing can occur between batches.

Many VFD software programs now come with a monitoring program that will track V/A/Hz and nearly any other parameter the VFD is capable of. This is useful for tuning the drive to the process. This is another big selling point.


I've been suggesting that manufacturers of online testers combine an effective chart recording feature in their software so I can program the unit to record from a programmed day and start time to a programmed stop time instead of being solely event based or record motor start for a programmed (but finite) time period. It was suggested that I give the unit a continuous trigger and repeat the time period over and over as a work around. A free entry day/time would make the unit more useful to troubleshoot process systems. But now the Fluke Power Quality Meters have a funtion to do that.

I purchased an off-line motor tester , but have not made an online motor tester purchase for the reasons stated above. If I was in a different industry where our motors are in a tougher duty application or totally inaccessible I might put the online tester at a higher prioity than I can justify currently.

I just wanted to put a slightly different perspective on this thread.

Jeff

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Wally,

Hello Sophie,

I found two articles in French. They may help you address your efforts. (I just could attached one, I'll send you the other one later).

Feel free to e-mail me at my personal account Libreros@pdma.com, I can answer your questions in regards the PdMA technologies. Feel free to write in English or French.

Cordialement,

Hebert Libreros

ZONES_DE_DEFAUT.doc (1,317 Kb, 18 downloads) ZONES DE DEFAUT

Sophie:

Here is a study that was performed on the industry in 2003 as to the status of the industry, at that time. All of the manufacturers, including PdMA, Baker, ALL-TEST Pro, Areva (Empath) and Iris (CS Meter) have been making advances since then and the market has opened up.

IEEE has finally issued the IEEE 1415-2006 on May 1, 2007, which covers all of the common diagnostic technologies used within industry for maintenance and troubleshooting of induction machines.

Each of the technologies has their strengths and weaknesses. The selection actually depends upon your needs. Most have not included vibration as part of their technology, from a true analysis point of view.

Howard

Motor_Diagnostic_and_Motor_Health_Study.pdf (809 Kb, 63 downloads)

Sorry to bump such an old post. I am new in my company's reliability department, in-fact, I am kind of a pioneer in my plant for electrical reliability projects - I have used a lot of the information I read here to get a great starting point

I have spent quite a bit of time over the last couple months looking at the various motor testing softwares out there, and after meeting with some of the vendors, my company has narrowed it down to the PdMA MCE Gold, and the Areva Empath 2000. Both softwares seem to be quite beneficial to our company, assuming we develop a good practice of using the equipment.

My question is to those of you who have used either system: Can you provide me with positive or negative experiences with MCE Gold, or Empath 2000? Any and all feedback will be greatly valued, we are very close to making a decision.

Thanks in advance