IMC-2008 23rd International Maintenance Conference - Dec 8-11 - Hyatt Coconut Point Bonita Springs Florida Join or Manage Your Profile Posting Boards Enterprise Asset Management EAM & Computerized Maintenance Management Systems CMMS Posts About SAP®-EAM (PM Plant Maintenance) Planning Best Practices
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I think issuance of work permits should not relieve the permit requestor/owner who should be the work supervisor from his responsibility to ensure safety of work. The permit issuer only acts as third party to ensure safety at work is proper.
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IMO the permit issuer can not be a third party.
The dumbest explanation of the Permit to Work Systems I heard from "veterans" "If enough people sign the papers, somebody will catch that something might be wrong" In this organization, the PTW system was "very burocratic", don't know if they are working smarter now. My point is: Let the guy who signs the PTW, be at least in the vicinity, if he can be harmed also, he wouldn't sign something blindfolded. We call that acountability Steven van Els, CMRP |
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Perhaps I should clarify my view ie Operations is responsible for equipment isolation & cleaning, gas test, check proper PPE which are pre-requisites prior to start of works.
But Operations cannot be responsible for hazards from works done by the permit requetors who are mainly maintenance who should be self-regulatory in ensuring safety of his own works or actions. |
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 Josh the purpose of the PTW system is "To prevent that incompatible activities take place at the same time and place, resulting in hazardous situations" Imagine you are in a refinery and at the same moment, on the first floor, people are breaking a flanged connection, and on the second floor above, hot work (welding and cutting)is going on... This scenario invalidates your statement about the responsibility of Operations. This message has been edited. Last edited by: svanels, Steven van Els, CMRP |
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Ok agreed when there are many jobs going on simultanouesly. Anyway, the permit requestors should be still self-regulatory in ensuring his works do not harm others rather than dependent entirely on others to do so.
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But somebody need to have the "helicopter view", the craft and operators will be too busy working.
Steven van Els, CMRP |
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My answers inserted:
Darth Eugene Vader |
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Permit Issuer is not a third party, he/she must be the Area Supervisor (equipment owner) or his/her authorized designee.
Permit Acceptor is the Maintenance Technician who will do the job. If the job requires a crew of technicians the main responsible for the job will be the Permit Acceptor. If the crew handling the job includes outside contractors the supervisor of those will also signs as permit acceptor along with the responsible person from Maintenance Department. The PTW Safety procedure requires training to allow an employee issue or accept PTW. At Maintenance we determined that all of our technicians must be trained and be authorized by Safety to issue/accept PTW. I would not have a crew of mechanics waiting at a pump station for a PTW acceptor to arrive, one of them must grab the PTW form and complete it with the Utilities Operator. Darth Eugene Vader |
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Eugene, from your reply I got the impression that the mechanics were waiting for you at the pump station
 That is how we landed at this PTW discussion  Steven van Els, CMRP |
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Operations (Equipment Owners) are the PTW Issuers, Maintenance the PTW Acceptors; both are responsible for identify: * risks/hazards present at the job/area, * options to eliminate, control, minimize them * Measures and precautions to be applied during job duration. * Who and how frequently will monitor the job to ensure PTw conditions are maintained, no aditional risk/hazards have arised, etc. For example, weather conditions may change after PTW issuance, should a reassesment of the safety of the job must be done? additional precautions taken? or even halt job until futher notice? Darth Eugene Vader |
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Waiting for me? I'm just one and this is a biiiiiig plant. They ussually wait for a Production Supervisor who have not enough trained designees to issue PTWs. Utilities were more wise and trained all his staff (except the secretary) to handle PTW. Darth Eugene Vader |
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Eugene, pls list examples of PM works can be given preauthrized PTW or no PTW at all (with relevant statements in the PM work orders) and which PM works still need to apply for PTW proper.
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Ok I'm familiar with the term equipment isolation/deisolation which include LOTO.
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OK then who is the single point responsibility for PTW? Operations, Maintenance or HSE?
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The single point responsibility for PTW?
Josh, think logical, if someone dies on the job caused by an accident, who will go to jail? Steven van Els, CMRP |
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IMC-2008 23rd International Maintenance Conference - Dec 8-11 - Hyatt Coconut Point Bonita Springs Florida Join or Manage Your Profile Posting Boards Enterprise Asset Management EAM & Computerized Maintenance Management Systems CMMS Posts About SAP®-EAM (PM Plant Maintenance) Planning Best Practices
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