I see that the SDT 170 with leak detection only is around $3K and an Inficon Whisper is less than a tenth of that. Around $250 by mail.
At first blush they are both ultrasonic leak detectors. The Inficon has a set tuning at 40.5KHz, whereas the SDT has a tuning that defaults to 38.5KHz, as I recall, but unlike the Inficon you can adjust tuning if required due to local noise issues.
Now, I want to believe that the SDT is 10 times the meter. Really I do. I could use some help, however. Is there an easy and obvious reason? This discussion should be open to anyone who has used either or both... and I'd particularly love to hear from Allan on this one, just in case he'd normally not respond out of fairness to his competition who is not, presumably, here to defend himself. I need some information to settle my head before I see the SDT in 'person'.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Metalworker Mike,

Like Lucky Charms and Cheerios you can buy a generic cereal as you can buy a generic ultrasound instrument. There are significant differences in the quality of the ultrasound instrument. Okay, the IFICON Whisper is centered at 40.5 kHz, but what is important is the plus or minus range. Is it plus or minus 2? Is it 10? Is it 20? Meaning it will also pick-up background sound that will interfere. Say you have a air leak, air leaks are typically 38kHz. The SDT is centered at 38.4 kHz plus or minus 2! I have used, sold and train companies in the use of ultrasound and the SDT has probably the cleanest sound without the background or interference. Couple this with a quality set of headphones and not a "Walkman" style headset then you have an instrument that will allow you to find those hard to find leaks. Flexibility: The SDT has a long distance horn and two flexible wands (2 models 18" & 31"). However, you are looking at the IFICON WHISPER that advertises ultrasound for leaks, bearings, etc... There are many devices out there claiming the same for less. Just check the SNAP-ON-TOOL Trucks. When you were a child eating you Lucky Charms do you remember a low-frequency device that Radio Shack made called the "BIG EAR"? This was the first parabolic reflector I had ever seen (1972). My wife and I were renting the second floor apartment with a balcony that overlooked the Blanding DRIVE-IN Movie Theater (Jax, Fla). I bought the Big Ear and hooked it up to a speaker amplifier so that I could sit upstairs and steal the movies sound from a close car by pointing the Big Ear at a speaker in the window of that car and every now again I might pick-up some noise from the people in the car.
Since the toy was low frequency I could'nt use it to find corona, tracking or arcing in a substation. If it were high-frequency the sensitivity would be too low, the sound quality really poor, and the overall unit quality would not of lasted one substation survey.
When I look at items such as the IFICON Whisper I think of that Big Ear device. I did end-up taking the Big Ear back due to the poor quality of sound.
But getting back to the SDT170, the SDT 170S is the model you are referring to. This instrument is more than just a "trinket". You have the same quality, the same sensitivity, as you do the SDT 170M and MD (the upper end SDT models). However for just a few dollars more you can upgrade the SDT170S to an M, M+ or an MD. So you are not ready to spend $4k to $6k for the other models. You purchase the SDT 170S and when you are ready to datalogg you can upgrade. WHEN you upgrade you do not send the unit in to the office, but you will be sent a contact probe and cable and software depending upon which unit you upgrade to. You will also get an EMAIL that will "prompt" your "S" to become an M, M+ or MD model.
I received an email from the SDT engineers one day that read here is your "Frequency Tuning". Now I had worked for another ultrasound company and sold millions of dollars of that instrument for 10 years. I liked frequency tuning and I wanted frequency tuning on my SDT170. The email had me link the SDT to my computer and the email prompted my SDT and inserted the frequency tuning. If you take the SDT and chose "Settings" then "Sensor Options", then highlight "Discov. Fr. Band" you will be able to scroll up and down from 15.1 kHz to 190 kHz. WOW, low-frequency (sonic) to high frequency (ultrasonic). NOW you must know SDT will not allow you to trend data in this setting because the same buttons you use for going up and down are the same as you use for storing memory (M & M buttons).
Try the IFICON in a NOISY environment. I mean noisy. I mean listen and tell me you can distinguish between a dry bearing, one with an outer or inner race, or ball defects. I do not suggest to my students to use the sound quality of a bearing to determine the condition of a bearing. I want you to trend it. But, without an instrument that can distinguish between background noise of someone dragging their foot on the floor and a bad bearing, I would not want to tell my department head its time to pull this bearing out.
By the way you also have the Lube-Adaptor that is available with this unit, ONE OF MY FAVORITES! This adaptor is great to keep you from over-lubricating bearings "IF YOU USE THE RIGHT METHODOLOGY" (1/2 strokes, etc...).
I did not see any headphones with the WHISPER, are there little ear plugs in the plastic bag? I am not being petty or facetious.
I want my students and customers to find the leaks, define the leaks (30-40 feet away), and hear them in a noisy environment. When I say a noisy environment, I mean..."I have been next to a steam turbine while it is operating and I have found "in-leakage" using an SDT and/or UE instrument. I seriously believe there is not an ultrasound instrument under $2k that can do that".
I want you to hear a heat exchanger leaking on-line or off-line. Listen to an inverted bucket steam trap and tell that the linkage is hanging-up, and the difference between blow-by and background noise. I want you to hear corona, tracking and arcing in switchgear before I open it up and when you tell your Department Head you have a problem with a bearing thats results in having to shutdown to change it due to a catastrophic condition, I want you to be pretty sure of yourself. That is also what you are paying for.
As everyone has heard before, "You get what you pay for". Advertisers can say what they want, many with very little detail or specifications and with little or no consequences. Good luck on making a decision. EY?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jim,

quote:

Originally posted by Jim:
Okay, the IFICON Whisper is centered at 40.5 kHz, but what is important is the plus or minus range. Is it plus or minus 2? Is it 10? Is it 20? Meaning it will also pick-up background sound that will interfere.

An excellent point, and one that I don't have an answer for.

quote:

Couple this with a quality set of headphones and not a "Walkman" style headset then you have an instrument that will allow you to find those hard to find leaks.

It's probably fair to say that with the couple of thousand less that the Inficon costs you could probably get yourself a pretty nice set of headphones. Your point, however, is taken - the SDT is a quality instrument from the get-go, and that will be shown in the accessories as well as the fit and finish.

quote:

Flexibility: The SDT has a long distance horn and two flexible wands (2 models 18" & 31"). However, you are looking at the IFICON WHISPER that advertises ultrasound for leaks, bearings, etc... There are many devices out there claiming the same for less.

I just wanted to focus only on the air leaks aspect, because that is probably the model level of SDT 170 that we would be buying. The SDT 170 at $3k-ish is only sold to find leaks, and to my knowledge has no activated functionality for bearings or anything else. Actually, if you pay the bare $3k-ish minimum would you be getting a long distance horn and both wands? I just looked it up, and no you don't get the horn or either wand. There is a detector of some sort as part of the unit itself.

quote:

I received an email from the SDT engineers one day that read here is your "Frequency Tuning".

Isn't tunable frequency standard on all of the 170s? Or is this a wider range for it?

quote:

By the way you also have the Lube-Adaptor that is available with this unit, ONE OF MY FAVORITES! This adaptor is great to keep you from over-lubricating bearings "IF YOU USE THE RIGHT METHODOLOGY" (1/2 strokes, etc...).

I've never used one... I've heard mixed reports about them, but the negative ones might be from people who don't use the right methodology, as you mentioned.

Anyway, thank you for your impassioned reply, and I imagine Allan will thank you, as well. <grin>

I'm working on setting up a presentation soon. I like having the best tools... I just don't like having to pay so much for them. It's like the old saying goes, "Everybody want to go to heaven but nobody wants to die." I have to learn to think in terms of value given, rather than cost.

Mike,

It is always best to try before you buy. A few years ago I tested SDT 101, SDT 150, SDT 170, and CSI SonicScan meters with various sensors and attachments on a simulated air leak. Not all meters and sensors perform equal! I have not tried the low cost meter that you mentioned. It might be worth trying to see if it offers adequate value. You might also compare ultrasound to a liquid (soap) film leak detector to get a visual "feel" for detection sensitivity.

The most sensitive ultrasound leak detectors utilize a focused (highly directional) sensor. This improves signal level and source location accuracy.

Walt

Mike,
"As Verbatim" from the instruction manual at the Ificon website .
PAGE 5. Ificon Whisper(click here to go to website)
NOTE:[
Bumping the probe into objects while seeking leaks will cause false leak indications. Leaks will be indicated by an increase in the audible TICK rate. Disregard occasional short term alarms.
Item #3.
If the audible ticking rate increases, this indicates the presence of an ultrasonic disturbance. Begin turning the "Sensitivity" knob very slowly in a counter-clockwise direction until the ticking rate returns to normal.

THE KEY WORD HERE IS "TICKING". Apparently you do not get any audible sound (other than a TICK) because there is no heterodyning being done. Heterodyning (UE) or demodulating (SDT) is the process that allows the ultrasound once received to be translated to an audible sound that is "alike", a leak sounds like a leak (hissing, swishing, etc…). The WHISPER has no headphones but uses the same leak detection as a "TIF" (another electronic leak detector), I liken these instruments to a Geiger counter "TICK" instruments.
Can you imagine with NO headphones (Whisper has none), no low-frequency audible sound, a ticking sound that starts as you pick-up a leak, a leak that cannot be distinguished between air moving through the pipe or fittings versus being able to hear and distinguish between air escaping (hissing, swishing noise) from an opening.
I do NOT see any evidence of tunable frequency on the Whisper. You simply change the sensitivity setting (sensitivity or volume). There is not a rod or contact probe to test bearings; you use a rubber tube pressed against the motor bearing and listen for a ticking sound. As with scanning for leaks, once the sound reaches a certain volume an alarm sounds.
I once went to a company who made tire changing equipment in Tenn., this company invested in ultrasound $4K each for the techs to scan the unit once assembled for air leaks on the fittings, regulators, etc... I arrived to find all the headphones hanging-up on the wall and each technician “shooting the bull” talking as they scanned for leaks without the headphones. I proceeded to walk-up and drag my foot across the concrete floor and the technicians nearest me started scanning the equipment after the ballistic meter on his instrument registered a high-frequency event or sound. The ultrasound is virtually useless for leak detection without a heterodyned or demodulated signal that converts the signal to a low-frequency audible sound you and I can hear through a headset. The quality assurance engineer saw what I did and gave me a thumbs-up as to say he now knows why so many units were leaving with leaks than ever before.
You mentioned you like having the best tools. Purchase an instrument for leaks that will find leaks in your environment. I have been in injection-molding, around extruders, as well as many, many manufacturing plants and I guarantee you will not be happy with any ultrasound that doe not convert the high-frequency signal to an audible sound.
The SDT does not include a flexible wand or long range horn, these are accessories. The SDT170 has Frequency Tuning; it will allow you to change frequencies sometimes as little as 1/10th of a kHz at a time. But, again you cannot trend while in that mode.
Yes, I one time I did work as the sales manager for SDT, but I also worked for 10 years with another ultrasound company as well.
My company Ultra-Sound Technologies is a "vendor-neutral" company we sell NO instruments. I own Ultraprobes, SDT, CTRL, Accu-Trak and CSI ultrasonic instruments. I also have curriculum written on all ultrasound instruments. Feel free to call me anytime.
Good Luck…..

quote:

Originally posted by Jim:
NOTE:[
Bumping the probe into objects while seeking leaks will cause false leak indications. Leaks will be indicated by an increase in the audible TICK rate. Disregard occasional short term alarms.

Certainly this sounds like a far less reliable method of discovering leaks, _particularly_ in a noisey environment. Maybe good enough for auto mechanics, but not good enough for a plant environment.

quote:

I do NOT see any evidence of tunable frequency on the Whisper. You simply change the sensitivity setting (sensitivity or volume).

True, the frequency is hard-wired.

quote:

You mentioned you like having the best tools. Purchase an instrument for leaks that will find leaks in your environment. I have been in injection-molding, around extruders, as well as many, many manufacturing plants and I guarantee you will not be happy with any ultrasound that doe not convert the high-frequency signal to an audible sound.

I'm convinced! <grin>

quote:

The SDT does not include a flexible wand or long range horn, these are accessories. The SDT170 has Frequency Tuning; it will allow you to change frequencies sometimes as little as 1/10th of a kHz at a time. But, again you cannot trend while in that mode.

Can you adjust the frequency then leave that mode (keeping the selected frequency) and then trend?

Whisper Sensitivity Knob:The Sensitivity on the Whisper is used as Volume, as you move closer to the target you reduce the sensitivity this lowers the volume. Most ultrasound scanning the procedure is the same "as you move closer to the target you lower the sensitivity" not the frequency. The whisper is most likely "Fixed" at 40.5 kHz plus or minus whatever.
The SDT "Discov FR. Band":Once the frequency mode (Discov FR. Band) is left the unit centers at 38.4 kHz. plus or minus 2. I have used them all for air leaks. In fact for 10 years I used another product that was centered at 40 kHz but had a much wider bandwidth, I can't remember exactly (I think it was Plus or minus 8-10 kHz?) the plus or minus but it was much wider than the SDT. This unit found a lot of leaks but the background was always present to some degree, when I started using the SDT I found the background noise was gone and when I came across a leak I knew it was a leak especially those leaks at a distance.
Later Mike I enjoyed the exchange.

quote:

Once the frequency mode (Discov FR. Band) is left the unit centers at 38.4 kHz. plus or minus 2

Is this a drawback? It seems to me like it would be one, but maybe it doesn't make sense to try to trend on an adjustable frequency because the frequency would affect the device's perception of the leak, and therefore throw out the trend.

Mike,

Why would you want to trend a leak? I have used the old UE Ultraprobe 1000 with variable frequency, but not the SDT 170 with variable frequency, so I am not sure (nor convinced) of variable frequency as useful for leak detection. The old SDT 150 with fixed frequency works quite well for leak detection, especially with a highly directional sensor. I am also skeptical that any meter with a synthetic audio signal can be as good as true audio for identifying a leak.

I have used ultrasound for compressed air leak detection in plastics plants. Choppers, shakers, and pneumatic pellet conveyors (pipes) product a lot of background ultrasound noise. Good luck dodging those sources!

Walt

quote:

Originally posted by Walt Strong:
Mike,

Why would you want to trend a leak? I have used the old UE Ultraprobe 1000 with variable frequency, but not the SDT 170 with variable frequency, so I am not sure (nor convinced) of variable frequency as useful for leak detection. The old SDT 150 with fixed frequency works quite well for leak detection, especially with a highly directional sensor. I am also skeptical that any meter with a synthetic audio signal can be as good as true audio for identifying a leak.

I have used ultrasound for compressed air leak detection in plastics plants. Choppers, shakers, and pneumatic pellet conveyors (pipes) product a lot of background ultrasound noise. Good luck dodging those sources!

Walt

Mike really the Whisper will not work for your application except maybe in a broom closet. The frequency tuning I have found is best used on bearings, gear boxes, electrical scanning to maybe tune out or tune in to a sound. The Old Ultraprobe 2000 had a at the 6 o'clock position a FIXED BAND setting this was 40 kHz plus or minus whatever. If you entered a room and their was way too much background noise you could select out of Fixed Band and tune to 38-40-42 kHz and the air leak would be heard but with less background noise. When I sold the instrument I would often take techs to a rather noisy area and do just that so that the background sounds were noticeably gone or lessen dramatically. The SDT 170 and the SDT 150 were both centered at 38.4 kHz, so when you might scan a room for air leaks you heard the air leak and not a bunch of other sounds (not completely gone but less background). There are techniques that everyone should learn about using airborne ultrasound such as how to deal with competeing sounds, frequency tuning, dealing with barriers, etc... For instance placing the ultrasound receiver in front of you and turning your back to a competeing ultrasound (leak, compressor, etc...), your body will block the competeing sounds.
As you build your tools and your predictive maintenance program you should consider someone coming into your plant for on-site training. I have a representative in Canada that can provide you with the training you need (level I or ultrasound workshop) NO Matter Whose Ultrasound You Are Using......

As we offer SDT, UE, SKF, Superior Signal (VPE series)and Inficon Whisper ultrasonic inspection systems - here's my take. The Whisper is packaged as a kit containing the leak detector, rubber probe extension, earphones, 9V battery and hard carrying case. It's primary market is for use by a HVAC/R technician. An optional ultrasound transmitter is also available. We've had some manufactuer's use this for their vacuum bagging operations. It is not designed to do plant wide inspections like the SDT system. Ultrasonic products range from $240 - $8K or more, depending upon user requirements and expectations.

Basic leak detectors:
http://www.reliabilitydirectstore.com/Ultrasonic-Leak-Detectors-s/51.htm
Inspection Systems:
http://www.reliabilitydirectstore.com/Ultrasonic-Inspection-Kits-s/238.htm