I'm using a CSI v 4.92 2120 on a silver plan so it is like 1985 will never go away. I'll move away when funds are available. I keep having problems with glitches in the software and basically have been lucky finding fixes as CSI hasn't been good about calling or E-mailing; so, today I hope I have a permanent fix on data tranfer - isn't really transfer but ---- opps people in

You know, I have been thinking about the "support pricing" issue.

You go out and buy a new car and spend $25,000 and you have to buy collision insurance. Most of you keep that in force even after you've paid off the loan. What do you get for that? Nothing but the promise that you will be paid the "current" value of the vehicle should you or someone else total it out, or that it will be repaired if damaged.

But when I pay the maintenance agreement fee on a 2130 I basically have the assurance that it will be repaired if damaged, that it will be upgraded as new features become available, that it will be checked out and calibrated once a year if I send it in.... basically I am assured that the meter will be "as new" every year, or until they stop building it which could be 10 years or more.

So really, when you think about it, it doesn't sound that unreasonable to me. I used to gripe about it too, but as I get older, hopefully I think a little more clearly about things. And I've changed my thinking on this. Just my 2 cents.

Good point Rusty. On top of this consider the fact that most of us make a decent living with this equipment. A lot of people make a lot less and still buy the $25,000 car and pay the collision insurance even though it makes no money for them. CSI has always treated me well and I am very happy with their service. As far as prices check out the price of a D9 Cat that some folks buy to make a living.

These maintenance agreements seem like extended warranties. Do you buy them on your consumer products, also?

I read that some of the big consumer electronics stores make no money off new TV sales, but they make a hefty profit on the extended warranty.

I buy the extended warranties on items that are likely to fail, like my laptop computers, expensive digital cameras that I use in the field (that I will drop). But not on my desktop computers, TV's etc. And not on my vehicles. I've had 2 laptops replaced so far.

I think the maintenance agreement on the 2130 is reasonable. Now the agreement on the software is another story... I'm not sure I would pay that when it comes due (but the customer who bought the software for me probably will).

I guess my take on it is, each of us should do what makes sense economically. But sometimes I think we don't think things through.. we just react to what we perceive to be "predatory" tactics. If you are in business for yourself, you may have a different perspective because you understand the "hidden costs" of doing business that perhaps an 'employee' doesn't fully appreciate. For instance, if you are a corporate employee and your position is eliminated, they weren't just looking at your $50,000 salary... they were looking at the $150,000 that you actually cost the company (benefits, insurance, office space, vehicles, training, safety equipment, tools, etc.)

You know, the collision insurance comparison is not really apples to apples. I mean, you don't pay enough in collision insurance to buy another car in 5 years.
And that $150,000 cost for the $50,000 salary?? I worked for a big company at one time and most of the "COST" of my job was to cover the DEADBEAT PENCIL PUSHERS that I had to report to.

You're right... it's not "apples to apples" and that was part of my point. You pay collision insurance and you don't get anything for it, unless you have an accident. But a maintenance agreement is more than just insurance - you get annual cleaning, calibration, and firmware upgrades + you get insurance to boot. And you'll have to pay the agreement for 9-10 years to have spent enough to buy a new 2130.

I guess I don't get it... no one hesitates to spend $22,000 for a new work truck that depreciates from day one, requires constant care and feeding, and usually doesn't create any revenue -- it just carries the revenue producers from place to place. You add up the true cost of ownership (original cost, interest, maintenance, fuel, insurance, property taxes, licenses, etc) and it's a lot of $$$. But it's just considered "the cost of doing business" and I never hear anyone complaining about it, or how much money GM or Ford or Dodge is making.

A good number of the 'firmware upgrades' used to be known as bug fixes. When these are 'enhancements' this can be implementation of intended features for the product, but it is good that your maintenance agreement pays for correcting bugs in the software.

When you send your data collector in for servicing do you get a loaner prior to sending it in. Perhaps, with a one man business one can just go on vacation.

Insurance is another product.

Most of the people complaining about how much GM, Ford, or Daimler make are the share holders. A large part of GM and Ford's problems lie in the cost of insurance type products for their employees and retirees.

Because I have an issue with the initial price, annual fee, and the arrogance that position affords, I vowed not to get sucked into a CSI unit even if it meant loosing several years of trending data.

I use a 2120, own a Ludeca VibScanner, have a Ludeca VibXpert on loan (18 months), trialed a 2130 (6 months), and am now trialing a Commtest unit.

Ludeca has improved the VibScanner in leaps and bounds in the last 3 months. Their joystick can be a little rough to use when it is cold out. They have lost several people over the last year and their parent is very slow to listen to the customer. Their support staff remains dedicated and very good. They have a lot of good points, but their just not up there yet. Given a couple of years I believe they will be.

I have not yet seen anything in the Commtest unit, sales, support, or software to be impressed with.

The big difference comes in with what you are going to do with the analyzer and the software. If you are going to the cafeteria to measure the ice cream machine you need one thing. If you are going out in a dirty nasty plant to measure variable speed variable load equipment where the ambient temperature is between -10° and 120° you something else.

I believe very soon I will reluctantly purchase a 2130.

I find it hard to believe that you could improve on the 2130 with the Speedvue laser sensor for monitoring variable speed equipment. For 'fixed' speed machines, I use the "detect running speed" feature which takes just a few seconds to find the exact running speed.

I am more impressed with the 2130 than I thought I'd be. There are things that need to be improved (key mapping, in particular), but it's one hot box.

quote:

Originally posted by Arnie Hart:
Because I have an issue with the initial price, annual fee, and the arrogance that position affords, ... I use a 2120, own a Ludeca VibScanner, have a Ludeca VibXpert on loan (18 months), trialed a 2130 (6 months), and am now trialing a Commtest unit.

Hmmmmmm... This sale is costing a lot of money. Which has always been the problem with the data collector market: the cost of selling it to the customer is exhorbitant (visiting the customer in a one mill town 100 miles out costs time and money; whole day goes by to sell a single unit).

The instrument market is heavily divided up, and the market used to be (if I recall) 3,000 units a year, whether or not it was a good year. Three-Thousand Units worldwide... See a problem? Designing software means putting together a package that will in the best-case-scenario be utilized by 3,000 or 4,000 users.

The only salvation lies in rationalizing through merger (which will likely never happen). Another prospective solution was "shared development" best described as a failed experiment (the DI 225 which was marketed by DLI, SKF and Everybody Inc.,as well as Entek's own customized version).

Is it a good investment to try to redress the collector / analyzer market?
"The Chinese are coming!"

The cost to chase that elusive sale may be high, however the price paid for the wrong equipment is much higher. All data collectors are not created equal. Many of the data collectors on the market are not data analyzers, and the claim of being a 2 channel collector does not mean it is a true 2 channel collector.

Bottom line it doesn’t matter weather the data collector comes from China, Germany, New Zealand, or USA the buyer needs to be aware. The time, effort, and expense put into researching a data collector is well worth it. In the end you will get what you paid for so you should know what that is.

Arnie, have you had any particular problem with the Commtest equipment? You seem disappointed.

quote:

Originally posted by Nate:
http://maintenanceforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3751089...571045991#8571045991They are sticking around- they are merely discontinuing support for the 2120-(marketing strategy for selling more 2130's)

I have had the exact same problem with 8210 laser align heads, I'm certain they are repairable, but know support means anupgrade to new gear, poor show I reckon.

quote:

Originally posted by Vibeguy2004:
Arnie, have you had any particular problem with the Commtest equipment? You seem disappointed.

When their support staff tells me I will have to upload, go to the machine, and down load 4 separate times to take H V A readings on each end of a 5 shaft gearbox I it doesn’t take much to conclude the data collector is incapable of being useful in the real world.

Arnie, would you please elaborate a little more. I use the VB3000 all the time and I cannot understand a scenario where you would have to download 4 times. It works just like any other analyzer, you can take up to all the memory in readings and make one dump. I take HVA readings on all my equipment and I never have to dump data more than once.

Arnie,

Are you saying that with everything properly configured in the software, that by design, you must download 4 times to collect data on one drive? I find it very hard to believe that anyone would put such equipment on the market, much less sell hundreds of them and have satisfied users as Commtest apparently does.

There must be something more to this story. Maybe the support person you got couldn't grasp your problem correctly. Maybe there is something wrong in your set-up.

Vibeguy2004, here is a copy of the correspondence I had with tech support, not to mention the phone conversations I had with them. This sounded so far off to my ears that I repeated with the emails so my eyes could have the pleasure also. What would you conclude? In communications I have had with other users I now know this was more a software issue, however I also have learned the VB300 is to slow to do what I demand of it

“So if I understand correctly, any folder I build cannot contain any machine with more than 9 axis measurements. Which would mean if I build a 5 shaft gearbox and want to take a H, V and A measurement on each end of the shaft (30 measurements). This would take 4 folders, 4 uploads, 4 trips to the machine, and 4 downloads to measure the entire gearbox?

That would be correct. It would require 4 separate downloads and uploads to the box.

Regards,”

Arnie,

Wow! That would absolutely kill me! I have several gearboxes, compressors, etc. that I wouldn't be able to do. One gearbox alone has 4 motors and 16 shafts in the gearbox. Without being able to build that as one drive like I can in RBMwizard, I would never be able to tell what was going on.

It is nice to learn about these thing second hand. Thanks.

Danny, I provided their “BEST” tech support person with a copy of my database and after careful study that was his conclusion.