Anyone who has done much troubleshooting knows that a 2-channel vibration analyzer, even a good one like CSI's 2130, is somewhat limited in what it allows you to do, especially on complex machines that run a varying speeds with transient problems.

I am thinking of investing in a multichannel system and was just wondering if any of you have direct experience with the ZonicBook/618E from IOTech. Seems like a powerful analyzer. I would probably go with 16-channels to start. But it's a little expensive, around $21K with the Analyst and TOMAS software. Is that a reasonable price for a unit like this?

I bought one of these a few years ago and have been really pleased with it. I look at rotating equipment (rather than structural stuff – other than the occasional bump test) and the 681E and EZ-TOMAS do everything I need- I have just been using it to balance some 14,000rpm compressors.

I was brought up on BN Adre stuff and the decision to change was hard, but was made on costs. I think the 618E and Ez-Tomas are good value – try getting a costing for a 16 channel Adre 408 and software.

I struggled to get the right software package – IOTECH sales staff were not too familiar with the differences between the different software packages that are available – I was told that in order to get Bode and Polar plots that I needed to get the Balance program – this is completely wrong: EZ Tomas does everything that an Adre 208 does except for order normalised cascade plots – timebased waterfalls are OK. I can get both the 618e and a notebook pc into a small aluminium case – great for flying to offshore locations where weight/size are a premium.

The only real problem that I have had is with the tacho pulse – the 618E is advertised as an 8 channel box with 4 tacho inputs. I get to use this kit on several large compressor trains (and have a rotor kit to play with) but I cannot get reliable transient data by assigning a keyphasor to one of the tacho inputs – I have to use one of the 8 data input channel for this, effectively making it a 7 channel unit. With the keyphasor assigned to a tacho input, I can get phase info during steady state operation, but lose the ability to track phase during speed changes – I have tried all 3 setup options for tacho inputs using the rotor kit as a test, but I just cannot get round this problem (anyone else with this problem or a solution?).

I don’t get a lot of sense out of the IOTech people when reporting this issue and suspect that their machinery vibration guys are not too experienced with field problems.

Why are you going for the Analyst software – you might not need it straightaway? Check out exactly what all the different packages can do (easier said than done) - unless you have a special bundle deal, you could keep initial costs down by getting the 8 channel 618E and EZ Tomas software and upgrading later.

You can get 30 day trials of each software package from the IOtech site to see if they do what you want.
The upgrade to another 8 channels requires purchase of a Workbook18 unit

I have used an ADRE 208 system extensively, and I have now used a Zonicbook system some. I also use another system geared specifically for balancing turbine generators.

Knowing somewhat the type of business you operate from this board and our few brief conversations in the past, I would think the Zonicbook would be a great investment for you. The main advantage it has over an ADRE system is that the Zonic is less expensive while adding the capability for realtime analysis through EZ-Analyst SW. For doing only rotating equipment analysis, ADRE, at least the older versions, is still my favorite, but I'm not sure my preference for ADRE would justify the cost of it compared to the Zonic. I understand that the 408 systems and SW are more like System One, and I can't comment extensively on that change, but I don't like the sound of it.

As Buzz mentions, the Zonic may yet have a few issues that need to get addressed. I haven't used ours enough to give a full opinion, but from what I've seen so far, I like it.

Michael Titone

Rusty; price is cheap or good and the feedback I have is that it is a good unit. It is not the only unit though. Ono Sokki has some good stuff.

We are in the process of getting a 24 channel Zonic 618E system (Turbine/Generators are 11 bearing machines). I'm getting the EZ-ANALYST and EZ-TOMAS software packages. I also cut my teeth on the 208P, but the disadvantages there were cost and the lack of ICP power for accels.

Regarding the tachometer inputs: Last month I attended a local one-day workshop by IOTech and Dytran. The issue of the tachometer input was raised by the IOTech sales guy. If I recall correctly, he indicated that the tachometer input would work fine with a TTL input, but with a Keyphasor you need to use one of the normal data input channels.

Maybe they will correct that in the future, but I wouldn't hold out for a hardware upgrade to fix it. As long as you know about it, I think you can live with it. It's not too big of a deal to me since I will have so many channels available.

The price you are quoting sounds reasonable to me. Does it include the 1-year software support agreement (including calibration)?

Steve

Many devices have issues with a Keyphasor taken off the front of a BN rack due to the DC bias voltage of typically -10 volts DC. I would try blocking the DC with a suitable circuit and then see if things work properly.

John from PA

According to their web site, the 8-channel box with either Analyst or TOMAS is $14K, or $16K with both packages. Seperately, each package runs $4K. The 8-channel expansion unit runs $4,900.

As for the difference between Analyst and TOMAS, one experienced consultant offered the following synopsis:

eZ-Tomas - Continuous monitoring of machinery, transient data during run
up, coastdown, load changes. Data is similar to Bently ADRE & 208 box.
Spectrum, timewave, Bode', Polar, Centerline, Orbits, waterfall,
trending, etc.

eZ-Analyst - Modal testing & ODS, recording to disc like a recorder for
post processing. Does not do orbits, centerline plots, transient data
from rotating machinery. Waterfall plot is weak.

Does that sound about right?

My approach to this type of purchase is to borrow the money at my local bank on a 3-5 year note and then use any revenue produced with the equipment to pay the loan back. For tax purposes, the entire amount can be "expensed" in the year it's purchased, even though it's not actually paid for yet. And the interest on the loan is a deductible expense. Paying for it outright builds "equity" in the company, but you can't spend equity. It just sits there in the company until you eventually sell the business (if that ever happens). I'd rather have the cash in hand to do with as I chose.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rustythevibeguy,

Rusty,

I have the Zonicbook 618E with both programs. I mostly use the ezTOMAS for variable speed-load tests including torque and torsional vibrations. I consider it a good value (price/performance). Value is in the eye and pocket book of the beholder! I have not had any tachometer issues, but there are a lot of things to consider when setting it up. There are software features/fuctions the could be added or improved that I would like to see, but I am sure every product is not perfect.

Walt

Thanks for all the input. Very reassuring to know there's a place to get unbiased advice from a panel of experts.

Sorry guys in advance for being illiterate on this issue.

Question: Is ez-TOMAS's only advantage over, say CSI 2130, its multichannel capability?

Thanks

Dave, TOMAS seems to be designed for continuous monitoring, and collecting data during startup, coastdown, and transients. One of the things I see in looking at the literature is the configuration flexibility, especially triggering (for instance, only collecting data within a certain speed range). I believe you can have it collect data on a periodic basis (minutes, hours, etc)

ezTOMAS can be set to take data every X-rpm, every X-time interval, or when an alarm level is exceeded on any data channel. It does not measure demodulation spectra (PeakVue, etc.), so you have to make traditional measurements for rolling-element bearings.

Dave,
In addition to more data channels, there is more tach channels and excellent temporary monitoring features (including E-mail/phone notification) compared to CSI 2130.

Rusty,
Why do want to start with 16-channels and not 8? I am still waiting for a job where I would need to beg/borrow/steal/rent/purchase an additional 8 or more channels to add to my basic unit. I will also add that there are more costs associateed with carrying/shipping cases, sensors, magnets/mounts, cables, and software annual fees. You should also plan on a lot more time for test setup, data analysis, and reporting. The user experience (style and procedures) are quite different from using a grab-n-go portable analyzer. Are you ready for all this?

Walt

quote:

You should also plan on a lot more time for test setup, data analysis, and reporting.

There you have it.... time = $$ (hopefully).

Walt, at 51 I am realizing the need to transition away from "predictive maintenance" (running routes) which is about 80% of my revenue. But I would need to replace that "basic" work with more advanced work (at a higher hourly rate) to maintain my current revenue level. That's part of the reason to move into more advanced type work.

The other is just to be able to solve problems. For instance, a recent chatter problem on a 3-head drum sander was problematic using just the 2130. Had I been able to monitor multiple channels at once, I think I'd have gotten to the heart of the matter pretty quickly. This sander has 6 belt-driven rolls all turning at different speeds, by 3 different motors. Plus there is the bed belt which runs at different speeds.

And I have a customer that will be putting a thin-slab caster (steel) into service this fall, and I suspect they will have some 'issues'. I'd hate to let some other analyst get their foot in the door, just because I might not have the right tools to analyze a rather complex process.

We also have a local company that makes zero-turn lawn mowers (Bad Boy) and I'd like to do a full work-up on the one I just bought. I suspect they have correctable problems that I could help them with.

I have found that "tools find work"... once you have a tool, you will find ways to use it.

As for cable, I have thousands of feet of cable, lots of connectors, and probably hundreds of accelerometers (you gotta love Ebay). So that shouldn't be a problem.

Rusty,

Yesterday I used ZonicBook with ezTOMAS on a 12-cylinder 719 bhp diesel driving a centrifugal water pump. I had 7-accelerometers (magnetic bases), a torsional vibration sensor and an optical tach. I measured data at 10-rpm intervals for a slow speed run-up and run-down (500 to 1850 rpm). Fortunately I had help to carry all my cases on and off the boat and down into the pump room!

Walt

So what did you find? Were you just looking at the pump, or the engine also?

Rusty,

Torsional vibation problem.

Walt

Walt,
I know what torsional vibraton is...but am unfamiliar with the term "torsional vibration sensor". Is this something you can buy specifically for that purpose? Is it casing mounted, or does it have to see a shaft? How is it mounted? I think I'm looking for a catalog or vendor write-up.
Thanks in advance,
George

George,

If it was easy and inexpensive, then a lot of folks would be doing it! There are a lot of technigues including:
1) Shaft end-mounted/driven angular displacement sensor
2) Shaft-mounted angular accelerometer
3) Shaft-mounted dual accelerometers
4) Shaft-mounted strain gages and telemetry for static and dynamic torque (Binsfeld and others)
5) Shaft end-driven optical encoder (many vendors)
6) Shaft-mounted home-made optical encoder (printed paper)
7) Magnetic gear-tooth detection sensor
8) Shaft surface-detection laser (B&K)

I use methods 4, 5, 6, and 7. I am not sure if item 1 is still sold. Anyone else have any other techniques that I did not mention?

Walt

I've painted the timing gear black and machined a few mils off the tips to get them reflective. Then use an optical pickup. Also, one can use a proximity probe for this, but the optical pickup probably has better frequency response.

The old B&K split beam laser was probably the easiest.

One must check sensitivities when using strain gages. Otherwise, there may be very little signal.

One can use a blind end of a gear for a shaft end detector.

Always, one must be careful of nodes (either strain or displacement/velocity/acceleration) when making a measurement.

I now have a reflective tape 3M material printed with black stripes that together with our friends magic converter works acceptable, search for previous topic on the subject. Surface thingy no longer come from B&K, still with hefty price tag from another vendor, also found in previous topic. Olov