We are putting together some budgetary numbers to determine the cost of having an outside technician/consultant to come in and collect and analyze vibration data from our equipment each month. We have about 1000 bearing points mostly standard pumps and motors.

What is a reasonable cost per bearing?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

$25-30 per machine

quote:

$25-30 per machine

What do you consider a machine?

Just the motor or both the pump and motor.

Tom,
I would clearly identify a workscope before asking for prices. I normally take approx 12-14 readings off a standard motor & pump set-up. This can vary depending on what is requested or required.
I would look at it this way to get a reasonable amount of data from the machine and be able to report on it well I would allow between 8 - 10 minutes per machine.

Example Only

If all machines are in close prox and are all running (HAHAHAHA Like this is going to happen! )
So if you have say 75 machines @ 8 minutes/machine + 1.5hour for lunch and site delay(paperwork etc) and an hourly rate of $100/hour

= 75X7=600 minutes+ 90 minutes = 690 minutes/60minutes = 11.5hours X Hourly rate $100/hour
= $1150
or $15.33/machine

This sounds like a great option

But the chances you are to having all your machines running while the operater is doing the survey is very unlikely, so you will probably find they will offer you only example 2

Example2
extend the time to cover everything in about two days data collection and 1 day analysis and reporting which will cost you 3 days of time at $100/hour = 8hr/day X 3
24hours @ 100
= $2400 OR $32/MACHINE
THIS EXAMPLE IS MORE THAN LIKELY WHAT I WOULD EXPECT TO BE OFFERED FROM THE SERVICE PROVIDER.


I have been a consultant doing this style of work and I now work in a inhouse program these are just my thoughts on your question. Basically most service providers that I have seen will quote an hourly rate or day rate. make sure you fill the day up if it is a day rate.

I hope this helps.

Hooch

quote:

What is a reasonable cost per bearing?

Don't know what some do, but we more or less quote the entire job rather than per machine or per bearing or per point. Some machines could have few points and some others would have many points. I remember somewhere someone quoted about $2 to $5 per point. Some bearing may be extremely difficult to get data on, so the cost would be greater than maybe some more easily done.

I guess if it was asked to break a quote down from "job" to per bearing, one could do that too. (smile)

Thanks for the replies!

From what I’m reading here I guess I should expect around $5 to $8 per bearing. (The form I have requires that it to be broken down per bearing.) So for 1000 bearings, approximately 200 pumps and motors, I would expect a monthly cost of $5,000 to $8,000. If the analyst was charging $100 per hour that would indicate that the time required collecting data and producing a report for 200 pumps and motors is approximately 6-10 days.

Does this sound right?

Is the analyst using his own monitoring equipment and software for the cited $100/hr?

$20 Per motor -Pump combination sounds about right. You should be able to run the route and do the analysis on those in a week I would think. I am judging on how long it takes me to do the 75 on my route. The more you run a route the faster you get, to a point. SO by the hour wouldn't be a good way to in my oponion.Also I am here with my pumps so I can go back if need to. A contractor would need to get all he could when he could.However I still believe a week would be sufficient. I can do the 75 here in 2 days easilly. I wish you were in South Alabama I would bid on the job.

Mike

By "Machine", I mean a typical 10 point installation, motor with pump.

I week for 200 pumps hmmm......
Should be done very easily. Cost for this work to be around the $5000.

Good value for money here for both your site and the service provider. Now you just need to work out your frequency of surveys.
4 weekly would be a good start and then review the results after the 4th survey. you may be able to push it out to 6-8 weekly.

My final question is if you have 200 pumps and you are looking to start doing VA have you thought of doing some in-house testing using Ultrasonics on these? Most tradespeople can understand this technology enough to find potential problems during the time they walk the plant doing inspections.
This is just my opinion.

Hooch

I wish I had a week to collect data and write a report on a 1000 points.

Where are you located again? May be worth moving down there.

Dave

Doing some in-house tests in between the surveys is a good idea, especially if the vendor is not readily available e.g. for offshore installations.

A consultant within 100 miles ----- ~$2,500 - 3,000. Other factors?????????????

A qualified vibration analyst should normally be a return of ~250-300k$/yr but with initial start-up and potential findings of impending doom he/she may be worth ~1.2mm the first year or two. Regardless; cost justifible - it is not just an expese - it is a return on investment.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sam Pickens,

Where are you located? "UA" doesn't mean much to some. Could be the University of Alabama to us southerners. (smile)

Sam is right 100 miles $2500 - $3000 seems fair, of course it depends on difficulty of access, oil refinery, papermill, power company, nuke, submarine, etc. Many factors enter other than number of points. A $2500 job might cost $8000 if not in a safe, easy access area.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
I can do the 75 here in 2 days easilly.

Let's do a simple math.
1. Data collection
6 min per unit including transportation
75 * 6 = 450 min or 7.5 hrs. + misc + loading/downloading = 8 hrs =1 day

2. Data analysis

12 min per unit on average
75 * 12 = 900 min = 2 days

(In my experience I may struggle sometimes for an hour before I make a call, since I'm an in-house guy and take responsibility for my recommendations. I can not afford to be overly conservative and recommend replacement if I just have a slight suspicion. This often is not the case for a contractor. Rarely a condemned unit will be taken apart to prove that the bearing was indeed bad and contractor can get away for a false call.

Also, a lot in analytical part of work depends on whether or not the analyst is using alarms as a trigger to initiate analysis).

3. Reporting

1 day

Total: 4 days of non-stop work.

Anything less IMO will be a low quality job.

Dave

Yep, theres alot to consider doing your own vs hiring outside VA...For that kind of money he better make some good calls, right guys?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave_man:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
I can do the 75 here in 2 days easilly.

Let's do a simple math.
1. Data collection
6 min per unit including transportation
75 * 6 = 450 min or 7.5 hrs. + misc + loading/downloading = 8 hrs =1 day

2. Data analysis

12 min per unit on average
75 * 12 = 900 min = 2 days

(In my experience I may struggle sometimes for an hour before I make a call, since I'm an in-house guy and take responsibility for my recommendations. I can not afford to be overly conservative and recommend replacement if I just have a slight suspicion. This often is not the case for a contractor. Rarely a condemned unit will be taken apart to prove that the bearing was indeed bad and contractor can get away for a false call.

Also, a lot in analytical part of work depends on whether or not the analyst is using alarms as a trigger to initiate analysis).

3. Reporting

1 day

Total: 4 days of non-stop work.

Anything less IMO will be a low quality job.

Dave

I don't think that for less money anyone will be forgiven for making bad calls.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave_man:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
I can do the 75 here in 2 days easilly.

Let's do a simple math.
1. Data collection
6 min per unit including transportation
75 * 6 = 450 min or 7.5 hrs. + misc + loading/downloading = 8 hrs =1 day

I normally use 5 min. It will only take 2 or 3 to get the data. I normally take 5 readings each horizontal point, two on each axial. No verticals. I would normally do 100, 4 point machines a day, as long as they are in the same county.


2. Data analysis

12 min per unit on average
75 * 12 = 900 min = 2 days

(In my experience I may struggle sometimes for an hour before I make a call, since I'm an in-house guy and take responsibility for my recommendations. I can not afford to be overly conservative and recommend replacement if I just have a slight suspicion. This often is not the case for a contractor. Rarely a condemned unit will be taken apart to prove that the bearing was indeed bad and contractor can get away for a false call.

Also, a lot in analytical part of work depends on whether or not the analyst is using alarms as a trigger to initiate analysis).

Analysis and reporting go hand in hand. I run alarm report, do my root analysis on it, and then transfer that analysis to a word document.

I then listen to my tape recorder to get all the other items (guard problems (be careful what you put in writing here), oil leaks, frame grounds off of motors, bolts loose, etc.). You see, while you're collecting data, you're looking around. Most of the time you're just using the box to verify what your eyes, ears, nose and feet have already told you.There is not a lot of struggling with the decision, just writing the stupid report

And finally, I put the pictures in that I have taken, if any. I've never had anyone tell me I couldn't take pictures, and after reading the reports, they want pictures for sure.

Now since these 75 pumps and motors haven't been checked before, lets give it 25% anomaly. That's only 19 items to report on. With one page per, and a template for that, I'd give it 1 day to analyze and report.


3. Reporting

1 day

Total: 4 days of non-stop work.

Anything less IMO will be a low quality job.

Dave

Come on Dave, these are run of the mill pumps and motors. They are not 4 reduction or epicyclic gear boxes. A quality job does not necessarily require a lot of time. It depends on the experiance level of the man doing the job. I know machinists that could do in two hours what it takes me four or five to do on a lathe or mill. The difference is the experiance, the quality will be the same.
The biggest difference in a consultant and in house as you have laid the ground rules is a consultant can not afford to whiffle away hours trying to decide what to recommend. You're losing money if you do.
As far as credibility, I would think that a consultant that recommends to replace everythingas conservertivly as you say will not be in business very long. You see, most of the time, starting off, someone will cut that bearing apart, or will request a report with pictures on a gearbox rebuild. You'll play the dickens convincing someone that know nothing about vibrations, that the bearing was "in the failure mode". If they can't see it, it aint so. And no mamager is going to let you be the cause of downtime without a payback

Dave

If you are going outside be sure you get an analyst
that is qualifide. We have had inhouse techs and outside tech. Had good and bad in both. We had an outside tech that worked 6 months with little oversite. Found out to late he didn't have the experience he claimed.I would want at least one person onsite with the experience to know if you are getting what you pay for.

quote:

(In my experience I may struggle sometimes for an hour before I make a call, since I'm an in-house guy and take responsibility for my recommendations. I can not afford to be overly conservative and recommend replacement if I just have a slight suspicion. This often is not the case for a contractor. Rarely a condemned unit will be taken apart to prove that the bearing was indeed bad and contractor can get away for a false call.

I'm with Dave Mac on this. I cannot and do not make recommendations just to cover my behind unless the client has insisted on something like a 6-month period for data collection. I'll assume that you have had a bad experience with an unethical analyst and not take offense at the implication that this sort of thing is commonplace.

From another angle (or bias) it could be said that in-house guys make a habit of stretching out their analysis time to twice their data collection time just to stay in the air conditioning.

I for one, insist on getting a look at everything I make a call (or miss ) on. I don't always actually get what I want, but no one I have ever worked for has accused me of making calls early to cover my reputation. You will damage it more making calls too early that too late.

If you've got any 75 pump routes that you need me to cover in a week, let me know.