IMC-2008 23rd International Maintenance Conference - Dec 8-11 - Hyatt Coconut Point Bonita Springs Florida Join or Manage Your Profile Posting Boards Machinery Condition Monitoring and Predictive Maintenance Posts About vibration/alignment/balance Vibration Lawsuit
Join or Manage Your Profile Posting Boards Machinery Condition Monitoring and Predictive Maintenance Posts About vibration/alignment/balance Vibration LawsuitPage 1 2
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Does anyone have information about the lawsuit that CSI Emerson filed against Commtest?
This was filed February 21, 2008 in Minnesota District Court case number 0:2008cv00450 Looks like CSI is playing a heavy hand against the competition. I’ve looked at the patents in the vibration field and most are worthless and none of them apply to good old Commtest. As a user of Commtest I can see why CSI is running scared !!! |
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I have used Commtest for over10 years. Back when I bought my first one, there were a few things that had to be done different, building routes in a pc and transfering them to the metercould not be done in the US. You had to build them in the meter first. As I remember,this only applied to the USA. Patents involved expired a few years ago, so they "fliped the software switch inside" the meter to allow the transfer both ways. I didn't know there was a current suit going on. All of this is to the best of my memory, it could be off a little.
I hd used SKF and CSI in the distant past and jumped at the chance to get somthing different and got better support. IMO... I do not work for them. I work for my bottom line. |
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The route patent was IRD's.
It lapsed when Entek bought IRD, somewhere along the line. There were several suits back in the day. CSI would have no say on the route issue. Must be for something else. Maybe for making it easy to use? Dave |
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As I said, 10 year old memories on somthing that didn't concern me that much is a little fuzzy. I just remember there were issues. Thanks for the info.
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According to this page:
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-mndce/case_no-0:...00450/case_id-96469/ there is another defendant 24-7 Power, Inc http://www.24-7power.com/about/ A list of CSI patents here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Se...y%2C+AND+Inc.&d=PTXT |
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Here is copy of complaint that was filed, seems like the Kiwi's are making the big boys nervous.
P-C08-450C.pdf (110 Kb, 206 downloads) |
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High prices, conceited salesman, worlds worst customer support, looks like IRD all over again !! You go all you new vibration companies !
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I assure you CSI has no monopoly on conceited salesmen  I have no problem with a company protecting their intellectual property, but why is Commtest being sued and not DLI, Entek, and every other maker of this type equipment? Are their products so much different than Commtest's?  |
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If CSI can prove to a 'jury' that Commtest has infringed their patent, then they will prevail. That's as it should be. If a jury of ordinary people decides in CSI's favor, how can anyone argue with that? Of course, if CSI is just trying to bankrupt a smaller competitor by hauling them into court, then that's a different matter. But a judge will decide if the case has merit, and it will be dismissed if it's considered to be "frivilous".
I tried to use a Commtest meter once, and I was not overly impressed. And I downloaded and tried to setup Ascent once and was immediately lost. Seemed much more cumbersome than MasterTrend to me. Things may have changed, but the only 'advantage' that I could see was that Commtest was cheap compared to CSI. That's not a reason for me to abandon CSI products, at least not in my book. BTW, I don't deal with CSI salesmen, and have called their tech support about 3 times in 13 years. So what's the problem?  Just my opinion of course. Regards, Rusty |
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I agree whole-heartedly. Signed, OJ Simpson  On a serious note, I had a short demo of the Ascent software and was also lukewarm to it. I prefer what I have, but it might grow on me if I used it a while, I dunno. As far as product support, since our upgrade to 5.1 earlier this week I have learned that all my case histories in RBMView are fubared. Product support has been extremely cooperative in trying to resolve this, but not successful yet. I can't complain a lick about their effort thus far, tho. |
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I tested the New VB7 and ascent. Both were more than adequate compared to Rockwell products. If I had to buy new equipment today straight up and could save 30-50% of the cost, I would buy Commtest in a heartbeat. And I am very partial to my Entek products.
Also here is a response I got from Commtest reguarding the lawsuit "Sorry for the delayed response. I forwarded your email on to our Corporate HQ in New Zealand and *****'s response was to let you know not to be concerned at all. It is being handled and is more of a nuisance than anything. I, personally, do not know much about it, but I used to work for CSI before coming here and it has been a common practice for them to have a lawsuit against the competition. To me, it just means that they are finally taking Commtest seriously as a competitor. Please do not hesitate to contact me, should you have any further questions. I will do my best to answer them or send them on to someone who can. Take care and talk to you soon!"" So take it as you will. |
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It looks like others have already been sued. The CSI patent # 5,633,811 "Hand held data collector and analyzer system" which is one of the two patents listed in the present infringement lawsuit against Commtest is listed at the end of the most recent SKF Microlog GX data sheet. See attachment. This seems odd unless they were ‘forced’ to license it from CSI. BTW: There is a typo in the patent list on every SKF Reliability Systems product data sheet. The patent number #US 6,789,360 “Retractable roof system for stadium” is not an SKF patent, I believe the correct number should be #US 6,792,360 “Harmonic activity locator” which is assigned to SKF Condition Monitoring, Inc. It looks like they just transposed two digits from the patent number before it in the list. I must be the only person who actually reads this stuff  . |
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I would hope others are also worried that companies like CSI are playing dirty! Should our small community tolerate such behavior?
One more point of the lawsuit is that CSI is also listing the manufactures representative and not Commtest out of Knoxville TN. Why is this? All CSI supporters should be aware their preferred company dirty handed dealings Does a company with an A+ reputation and business like Commtest deserve what is happening to them? Remember even small frivolous lawsuits cost money, at $250 an hour! Even when they at some point get dropped! This add to the cost that we all pay for our products! Go Commtest !!! |
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If there is legitimate cause for the lawsuit, then I am for them attempting to get restitution. What is the purpose of having copyrights if there is no punishment for infringement. I am sure that CSI lawyers are confident that they have a valid reason for suing.
As far as comparing the two, I have used both extensively over the last several years. There are things that I like about both and some things that I dislike about both. If I had my own business and Commtest would suffice and money was an issue then I would buy Commtest. If money were not an issue I would want CSI. I think that they are more reliable, when properly maintained. |
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The first 'data collector' I had any experience with was an IRD unit, in the early 1980's. It stored an overall vibration value and the g-SE value (whatever that was/is) and the database software was written in early dBase I believe.
The next unit was the SmartMeter with Intellitrend software by TEC. From what I knew at the time, it was really pretty revolutionary. I know there is some 'history' between CSI and TEC. TEC & CSI were small startup companies, and neither was a guaranteed success. Someone invested their money, time, and effort to get those companies started. In one sense, they built the first really useable route-based vibration "mousetrap," hence their patent. CSI also spent many years getting their product to where it is today and invested many, many millions of dollars creating and growing a market for their products. CSI did the "heavy lifting" so if they can protect their hard-earned market position by enforcing their patent, well good for them. It seems to me that Commtest has just build a 'cheaper' mousetrap, not a better one. Regards, Rusty |
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As I recall CSI has been on the other end of the legal action. Does that mean they make the cheaper (not less expensive) trap,too?
Regards, Bill Bill.Foiles@bp.com |
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Yes, actually there was a time, belive it or not when CSI was the cheap upstart mousetrap compared to the oldies (IRD and others) at the time that had "invested time and money...." and CSI was as a result at the other end of similar lawsuit(s) in some cases ending up paying a substantial bundle. In those days the tunes from CSI was 180 deg phase shifted compared to now. CSI made their basic heavy lift around 1986, Commtest around 1998 those "lifts" does not come for free for anyone doing it regardless how many done it before and do not imply patent infringement by default. In the start there was 3 startup guys/companies TEC, CSI, Palomar. Palomar went to SKF that have made complete software rewrites at least twice if not 3-4 times since mid 80´s so they have done some lifting also. I have not seen them "suing around" but that may be something I have missed, maybe they are "lame" or not (yet) have a reason to do that or do they keep their system modern and can keep the fight on technology level and not by lawyers... What I basically object against is a patent system that accept anything written nativ to the country w/o checking anything and hence accepting patents of technology that is well known and used at other places and leaving no option other than the common patent gathering mania of patenting anything and everything so a patent lawsuit can be returned with a equal amount of garbage content. On the other hand a single inventor with a genuin idea, specially from abroad, can´t make use of patent as it´s worth nothing since he don´t have muscle to protect it. So the patent system in the current shape only feed lawyers so it should be thrown in the garbage bin. Olov
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Vibration Analysis is complicated enough by itself. I don't envy the people who have to deal with the legal issues.
Ultimately, a patent is only as good as the enforcement, so if you think you have a case, protect yourself. Hopefully, the justice system can sort it out. I know what works for me, but not who stole what from whom. Danny |
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Here is some early CSI patent litigation history, when the shoe was on the other foot.
Who actually owns this mousetrap? I hope it does not depend on the ‘golden’ rule. In that case Emerson has $38B to back up their rules. |
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Interesting stuff. Sometimes a patent holder may not have the resources to develop a useable product. Someone else comes along and uses the idea, develops a workable product, and goes into production. The original patent holder then sues for infringement, wins, and a "settlement" results. The patent holder gets some cash, and the infringer gets to keep making and selling products.
Why doesn't the "infringer" just buy the rights to the patent from the get-go? Why pay perhaps millions for an idea that may ultimately not be useable, or when the customer base never takes off as expected. Better to pay a "settlement" from the millions in profit you have in the bank once your product is successful. Not a perfect system, but it seems to work well enough. Regards, Rusty |
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