quote:

Originally posted by Danny Harvey:


With Odyssey, I'm not sure what really happens, but I have been told to edit the measurement point description before collecting the data.
However, the 2120 makes it easy to delete a reading before you dump the data. The extra store button is also very nice for us ambidextrous individuals.

All the offroute data collected with the DP1500 can be set up to unload to the same point location or to an "unscheduled" location as they call it. If it is in the unsch. all you need to do is simply copy the data and paste it into the location point you wanted. If you don't want it you can simply delete it, which is something I have not been able to do very easy with RBM. Deleting complete points is easy but specific data is not (in RBM) that is.

Deleting measurements taken by accident are easily overwritten with the DP1500 or amended which is a great feature if you want to take several readings at different speeds for example without unloading. It will store all of the readings and not just one. If the 2120 can do this, someone please tell me how I would be greatful.

Jason,

If I understand what you want to do correctly, it is really easy to do with the 2120. With the proper measurement point in the screen, the Analyze button-5)Acquire Spectrum. Four pages of settings like fmax, lor, averages, PV, scales will come up. Make your selections and hit enter. It will return to the MP screen and tell you to hit enter again to start acquisition. IT will collect the reading you have asked for and display whatever you have it set to display. You can review the data and decide if you want to keep it or not. If you want to save it, hit F3 and it will ask you if you want to store the spectrum, waveform or both. If you save both, they will automatically (no cutting and pasting required) be stored in sequence with the current measurement point or points if you are using a 2-channel. It is slightly different for the Consultant and I can show you that one if need be.

I'll try cutting and pasting what is called off-route data in Entek lingo. That would be a big help. (It is different in CSI lingo)

Jason,
You have said twice in this thread that it isn't easy to delete specific data. I'm a little confused. Are you familiar with "Stored Data Management?" It only takes me about 10 seconds to delete more data than I intended to.

Danny is right; the easiest way to get multiple sets of data on one point is through "Analyze." If you have a lot of points to redo, like a speed change on a paper machine, you can copy the route file (no data) in the field on your 2120 and re-run the route. This is handy also when you get that aggravating "Err Data File Too Long" message. You don't have to go back to the office and dump and reload to finish the route.

David Eason

I'm attaching a .doc file that has some examples of what RBMWare can do that Odyssey cannot (or at least I can't make it do).

Sorry Dave, but none of the Centacs that I cover have any problems to display, but the fault frequency lines are there.

Maybe Odyssey is a great database program, but my standpoint is that I do vibration analysis and not database management. These tools that are displayed in the attachment save me many, many hours of analysis time and I wouldn't trade them for a better operating database program that is a "Real Windows" environment.

I went straight from IRD 7090 to RBMWare, so you could say that I was starting over as far as software goes and this is what I learned on. I'm sure that my bias is due to knowing RBMWare better than I know Odyssey, but I don't think that Odyssey can do any of these things that save me analysis time. If I've got to live with some extra data that I don't want, I can work around that. I can even delete it if I want to bad enough. What I can live with is the slowness of doing analysis with Odyssey. Just being able to hit "X" and identify the harmonics in a spectrum would probably cut my analysis time by 1/3 or so.

If anyone can show me how to do any of the things I show in this attachment in Odyssey, I'll gladly admit my error.

RBMWareplots.doc (260 Kb, 45 downloads)

David,

"more data than I intended to." is a good way to put it. I don't think I fully understand what it does. I tend to just leave it alone if it doesn't screw things up.

Everyone,

Another thing that we really havn't discussed that is relevant to Chuck's decision is the difficulty of the transition from one package to another. For me, it was an easy decision because I knew that I had to change from IRD 7090 by Y2K and that I was going to have to start over anyway. That took away IRD's edge. Then I took their first "offer" for the actual price and found CSI to be far less. They were upset that I didn't ask them for a better price, but I just don't like doing business like that.

Anyway, As we have proven, regardless of how good a vibration analyst you may be, knowing one software package doesn't mean that you know them all. There are going to be some big changes if Chuck changes from IRD to RBMWare or anything else and the value of the change needs to be considered along with the difficulty of adjusting to a new way of things.

I can tell you from experience that while I really like RBMWare now, it wasn't always so. I think that with any complex software program, learning how to use it properly is the most important and also hardest part. We screwed things up badly when we set up our databases. I learned how to use it right and fixed the screw-ups and it has served me very well. I have also learned to live with its limitations.

Using Odyssey for the last 2 years has been frustrating for me mostly out of ignorance. I get the job done, but I feel I can do it better with RBMWare. I have no doubt that our job can be done competently with just about any of the available packages if you know how to use it. The frustration of changing should be weighed along with the technical aspects.

Have people quit using Real Time Analyzers? Here's a new one CF-7200 from Ono Sokki (there are plenty out there). As most know, I have a little ME 42 for an engineering tool that's as handy as a calculator but inadequate for a large PdM programme or many functions you may want from a powerful analyzer but I have them and sell them. When we went with Billy Gates and blackboxes, did we take a step back? We went that way because they were cheap - how about now? Blackboxes more expensive than RTA's.

Danny,

You are exactly correct in stating that the switch to a different environment would be difficult. I have spent countless hours contemplating that very issue and the time it would take to teach myself and in turn the entire staff a new software suite.

In light of the money I can potentially save by updating my warranty package I am seriously leaning toward staying with the rockwell offerings....even if I have support issues later on.

I'm hoping that Rockwell will get their act together soon regarding sales and support...I am literally forcing my local AB rep to learn what Odyssey and EnPac's are as we go....he came by the office the other day and I had to sit for a couple hours just explaining to him what we did....they are totally clueless. i should just buy the dang division off Rockwell and do it right.

Mr. Reliability,

I too am a longtime CSI user. I grudgingly updated to the 2130 recently, and boy am I glad I did. It takes some getting used to but it is ultra powerful in my opinion. RBMware I sort of tolerate. My chief complaint even with MasterTrend was that it was not really a true Windows program, just an old DOS program ported to Windows. I never understood why it couldn't work more like Adre' or ME'Scope. They say the next update of RBMware, due out in a few months, will be much better (i.e., a true Windows program)

But I'm like Ralph, I like the simple way that Plotdata works... it could have more features but they'd probably just get in my way. I guess it's whatever you are used to.

My largest issue is what most of you have already mentioned. Switching from one to the other is like starting over in kindergarden again. I used Entek for 9 years and then switch jobs and now I am using RBM. I know it is powerful and probably has a lot of the same features I used in Oddysee but I haven't found all of them yet.

David,

My example of deleting or moving data is this. There are two of us that collect data. At one time I collected an inboard point that should have been an outboard and vise versa. I wanted to move the data to its correct location after down loading (because that is when I discovered the mistake) but I can not find a way to do this. I was able to find out how to delete the trend data point. If you know how to fix this I would appreciate knowing. Thanks

Jason

Jason,

That's my biggest complaint with CSI's stuff, I think. It's easy to fix that problem at the data collector, but not easy at all after dumping and that is the opposite of what you get with Odyssey.

Jason, if the points are set up exactly the same, it's not a problem. Use the Database Utility program and "copy" the points of interest to a new temporary database. You can set the range for the date/time of the data to copy. Then open the temporary database and rename the points (i.e., swap the point ID's and names). Then copy the points back to the original database. You can use the "move" function, but I always just copy and then delete the invalid data (again, using the date/time range feature).

But if the points are not set up exactly the same (other than ID and name), this doesn't work.

Wow, Rusty, that sure sounds so much easier than cut and paste!!!!!!
Danny,
I am currently working on duplicating what you like (your .doc) and will sent it back.
I know for a fact that with Odyssey you can set up one 'rpm or ft/sec or furlongs per fortnight' and have all of your data point 'rpm' values update automatically. Some of my customers do this for entire paper machine trains, as it looks like you do.
And, I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is what we are used to using that plays a large part in what we feel comfortable with.
As far as using a 2130 with Odyssey, blame CSI. Odyseey has ALWAYS had an open architecture.
Old instrumentation? Would you believe an IRD 310 (vacuum tube, tunable filter,write down those values with pen and paper)!

Ron,

I look forward to your examples.

My oldest instrument is a 600 that was given to me in 1996. i USED IT IN 2000 to baLANCE ONE FAN (sorry, can't seem to control my shouting) but it developed a short and I tossed it. It's last calibration was in 1981.

Danny,
Here are some examples of what you were using for troubleshooting. They aren't an exact match, but tell me what you think.
As I stated, once having put in the time to learn Odyssey, I would NEVER go back.
Ron

Danny.doc (313 Kb, 18 downloads)

Jason,
As you've seen, deleting data is easy. Moving data can be done IF as Rusty pointed out, the AP sets are the same. It clearly isn't as easy as "copy--move." Take a look at the attached doc and see if it makes any sense.

Ron,
I looked at your attachment. I like the ability to collect an overall in analog and digital.

David Eason

move.doc (500 Kb, 10 downloads)

To All,
You know, the more I think about this, if it takes more tools than any of the big softwares can yield for you to make an accurate vibration call, maybe you ought to look into real estate, or Herbalife
Nice Pas?

Ron,

The ability to take more than one reading with just one press of the button (your first illutration) is a matter of preference and I would rather take a single reading with a single press of the button. Doing it this way makes review of the data effortless with CSI since it can be set to display the spectrum, waveform, both or overall. No need to go into a menu to review data. It is right there already. Once again, a matter of preference. (BTW, reviewing data on the Datapack is very difficult. When I hit review data and it gives the menu asking what data you want to review, the only thing I can get it to display is the first spectrum. How do you review all the others?)

In your second graph, how long did it take you to display the cursor? As I recall, you must double click on the cursor value (sorry, don't have my odyssey set-up right now) change it to sideband, maybe change to a fine cursor, close the menu, set the main cursor, hold down control and move the sideband cursor. All I have to do to show it in RBMWare is hit the x key a few times.

I will have to play around some to figure out how to show multiple points. With RBMWare all I have to do is select multiple point spectral display, select the points I want to display and there it is. From there I can click on any of the spectra and move to a single display or a waterfall or multiple waveform. I use this type of display quite often in RBMWare and hope that it is as easy in Odyssey.

The Edit Band Set is almost exactly the same in RBMWare except that you are limited to 12 parameters. I have never found a use for more.

The band alarm graphs can be displayed in RBMWare on a single graph, but they are not linked to the cursor, they display the trends in whatever parameters you select. They can indeed be autoscaled in RBMWare.

Order-based display may not be a problem in Odyssey for you, but it is for me. It may be something in my set-up, or maybe a glitch that has been fixed in subsequent versions of Odyssey. I plan to look into that some more.

I don't use RBMWare's reporting, so I can't say about it being hyperlinked to the data, but I think it is.

How long does it take you to create the displays that you have shown? I can display any of those in a matter of seconds in RBMWare. The only thing that I see that Odyssey has that RBMWare doesn't is the cursor that displays the trend for the cursor value. (RBMWare does have a profile spectrum feature that will display Total Energy, Max Peak, synchronous, non synchronous and floor energy for whatever band you have the cursor set in, so that is pretty close.) Where are the fault frequencies displays?

I'll assume that you meant no insult to me in saying that I am not doing justice to either by switching back and forth. I suspect that you meant that it is difficult to master either when you must switch back and forth and that is true to a certain degree, but I assure you that I am not doing any injustice to RBMWare and that I am at least trying to learn Odyssey. In both cases, my clients are getting what they need out of it and that is really all that matters.

Out of curiousity, how long did you use RBMWare?

ps Maybe you should say that you would never chose to change back. You never can tell what might be dictated to you by others.

Danny,
The plot displays take some time to set up, but once the view is saved (and you can save hundreds) they are always there. So, if a view is set to save a cursor and sidebands, you just need to adjust them on the new data.
No, I was not insulting you. Any software takes time spent with it to master it.
I used Mastertrend and RBM for over 7 years. Never understood it's menu flow. Maybe that's it. Odyssey just seemed more natural to me.
I get your point about NEVER, but I have to tell you that if I ended up in a company that forced RBM on me, I would look for another job. I feel that strongly about it.
Also, I noticed that you look at all of your data, including during the data acquisition portion. I must admit that it was done that way by me as well when I used RBM.
With my automated alarms and reports in Odyssey, I have never looked at the data during acquisition. Dump it, run the report and inform the customer of any immediate requirements. I use NOTES to help with that as well as any data alarms.
Off route data can be automatically updated to your database using 'smart' move. It puts it where you entered off route from your database route.
Reviewing your data - While on a point, you will see in the lower left corner "1 of 1". Press "next" and it will go to the next data, regardless of the datatype. If it is a time waveform, you will see the time.

Ron,

I guess there are tow approaches to this. With CSI, I review all the data as I collect it and take any extra stuff based upon the route data and with IRD, you collect everything every time and only review it during the report. There are certainly advantages to both methods. I am more comfortable with the CSI method and you are with the IRD. Both are good tools if used correctly. Maybe I have an advantage in my ignorance of what a real database looks like. I don't know how it is supposed to perform, so I don't know what I'm missing.

I guess that I do look at every spectrum in that it is automatically displayed on my data collector, but it takes no time unless I see something I want to look at in detail. Then it may take a few seconds. I don't necessarily look at every spectrum when reporting. It depends on the equipment. Gearboxes and compressors get more attention than fans and pumps. Most of my routes are what you would call "mature" which means that I could probably do them without the data collector anyway. (See Walt's rant about "do we need instruments").

With our views on software, one thing's for sure, you and I will never compete for the same job.

I definitely agree that if you can't run a successful program with either of these, you need to think about a career change. It's like golfers who want to improve their game with a $1000 set of irons. They would be much better off spending $30 on a lesson probably.

For the first twenty years of my consulting carreer, I used equipment that had a built-in oscilloscope to see the input signal and usually had the ability to the input time domain signal in acceleration, velocity, or displacement while the data was being collected. It was only in 1988 that I got the ability so see digital spectra and the idea of making decisions based only on spectra is not something that I'm entirely comfortable with. I'm really uncomfortable with the idea that one would not even see the data until report generation time; I've seen many problems solved that would not have been solved by seeing only a set of spectra at the end of the process. Most of the time, the conclusions would be the same, but by no means always. This may seem to be a strange attitude for someone like me who is in the automatic diagnostic software business. To me, if you are spending the time collecting the data, you should make you of all the available information that you can get and use the collection time to maximum advantage.