Hello,

I and my peers in our facility are a bit puzzled by what a salesman from a camera manufacturer told us last week. He stated that thermograghy certifications are not recognized. Can anyone shed light on this for me? Basicly he told us that he could have anyone train us and we would be level 1 certified??????

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ddane,

Your salesman can not be any wronger ( if that is even a word)...
Certification IS recognized by many organizations and companies. Now the question is what certification is recognized?

This really depends on the end user's requirements and specifications. In the US, most Thermographers are certified in accordance with the ASNT SNT-TC-1A recommended practice guidelines set by their employer's written practice.

Now there are training institutes that have their own certification brand. Most of these training institute certification programs are usually in accordance and meet with set standards, guidelines, recommended practices and specifications.

Training and Certification are two completely different things and should never be confused. Also, Qualification and Certification are also different. There are many "Certified" thermographers out there who simply are not even qualified to hold an imager in their hands.

When choosing a training program for you or your company try look for an instructor or institute that has actual real world experience within your field. Has the qualifications you desire in an instructor within your field and can deliver the most content both theoretically and practically.

Do not get caught up with sales pitches.

When it comes to certification, find out what your industry and clients require and also what will be acceptable by insurance and state requirements.

Hope this helps a little.

Best Regards,

Sonny James
NDE Institute of Trinidad Ltd.
www.learnndt.com

Hi there,

This very question came up in my "Level 1 Certification" course. The answer to your question is that there is no AGREED upon standard for IR Thermography certification. Several organizations such as ASNT and ASME offer standards that can be used by individual companies as guidelines to establish a level of qualification for IR Thermographers within their own companies.

The purpose for certification by a reputable training facility is a good idea because it announces that an individual has at least shown a level of competency with the technology.

Although I am in Canada, my instructor from ITC ( a FLIR division ) was very familiar with US requirements ( the same for Canada by the way ). There is not any Federal, State or local regulations that require anyone to be certified to perform IR Thermography inspections but you could run into some individual departments or insurance houses that might ask for some qualifications. What that would be is anyone's guess.

One thing you can be sure of is that there are lots of "yahhoos" running around with IR equipment that have no idea how to interpret what they are seeing. The reason for that is likely because they do not want to spend the couple of thousand dollars that is being charged to show them how to use the camera properly.

TDIR ( Sonny ) has it right on the mark. Be sure to get proper training or you will likely just be frustrated with misinterpretations. Certification is another matter. If you need it to do someone's work then by all means go for it. There is a catch though... Most outside certifications come with a wonderful thing called an expiry date. Yep you need to pay them more money or at least just jump through some hoops after 3-5 years to get "re-certified". Apparently, they want to make sure that you have not forgotten what you have learned. It is always nice to have someone look out for your best interests.

Good Luck,

DanS

Just my opinion, use somebody like Snell for IR training and not a camera manufacturer.

Our industrial insurance provides "credits" for predictive maintenance activities (reduces our premiums). We would get more credits if our thermographers and vibration guys were certified to ASNT requirements. I think most of the training outfits out there offer training that meets ASNT requirements, but there is more to the ASNT certification than just the training.

quote:

there is more to the ASNT certification than just the training.

YES! There is. I wish we could say folks were qualified after taking our course but it ain't true! Our courses comply fully with ASNT educational requirements. It is the Written Practice of a company that define what someone needs to do to be fully qualified"”essentially these are the "rules of the game."

ASNT standards and guidelines define that as being based on training, documented experience (3 months for Level I and 9 additional months for Level II), as well as some sort of performance based testing. Companies can chose to comply fully or partially but, in the end, it is the employer who actually certifies the thermographer.

Infrared, by the way, is just one of 11 NDT test methods governed by ASNT standards which are widely recognized and respected worldwide.

Some training organization make a big deal of their own "certification!" It is, in my opinion, all too often simply marketing madness and not really related to qualification.

I'd be happy to discuss this further here or off line if you have questions I can answer.

Mr snell
i am a certified Level-1 Thermographer but i would like to confirm wheater it is ASNT Certified or not. The training institute declared it is a Level-1 course but on Certificate i didnt find anything related ASNT.Can you Upload a copy of ASNT Certificate ( blank copy for seeing how it should be)
or you can mail me on my id mr.thermographer@rediffmail.com

thanks & regards

THERMOGRAPHER,
ASNT only issues a Level 3 certificate themselves, and to get this you must sit the ASNT level 3 exam, and meet other requirements. Training companies train in accordance with ASNT, but they are unable to issue ASNT certificates, this must come from the employer. Proper ASNT certification means that the company needs to meet certain criteria, the most important of which is to have a written practice in place.

So no, your training company certificate does mean you are certified to ASNT. It may confirm that you have attended a course to ASNT requirements, but it CANNOT in itself be an ASNT certificate.

www.thermalvision.ie

I am glad this is being discussed. I have had several individuals come to me thinking they are certified. The ASNT guidelines can vary based on the companies testing requirements. Most NDT organizations use a standard formula for certification of an individual to level II for ASNT requirements. This formula includes level I and level II classroom training, supervised field experience (usually in hours rather than months, we use 2000 -granted that equals a year.), and a general, specific, and practical exam test. A general test would be over info learned at your training course, specific would deal with your companies written procedures for performing the types of testing you will be involved in, and a practical in which a known test sample is supplied and you must successfully complete the inspection with satisfactory results. I am frustrated when I see a guy who worked at wall mart 3 months ago running around telling everyone he is a level II because he went to two weeks class, then says he has the greatest IR camera ever made that can look through the panel covers of 480 switchgear.

quote:

i am a certified Level-1 Thermographer but i would like to confirm wheater it is ASNT Certified or not. The training institute declared it is a Level-1 course but on Certificate i didnt find anything related ASNT.

I can appreciate your frustration! I've dealt with similar responses since 1986 when I left a training company that pushed their own brand of certification, one that was often seen as meaning much more than it actually did due to the "seal" they issued with it.

As Bob's response suggests, ASNT does NOT certify. They do, however, issue a certificate indicating that someone has passed their Level III exam. We have five people on our staff who hold such certificates. (You can always check a person's records by going to ASNT's website at <http://www.asnt.org/certification/cert/intro.cfm>. In the end, however, it is our company that actually certifies our own people at any level.

When we issue certificates to students attending our courses, they say "___ is certified to have attended a course that complies with ASNT educational requirements." I know, quite honestly, that many of our graduates then turn around and say "I'm certified!" or their cards may even say "ASNT Certified." We don't promote that but it does happen.

Many customers who require that their thermography work be done by a "certified" thermography don't really have a clue what that means. When pinned down, most will say "they need certification training."

I have a paper that I wrote and presented at the recent Thermosense conference on the topic which I'd be happy to share with any readers (or have Terry post here). Just let me know and I can mail or email you a copy.

And, YES, Ty, I very much appreciate your response. Thermography is serious business. If we want full returns on our investments, the work must be done by qualified people and we must be able to demonstrate that they truly are qualified. Since thermography was adopted in 1992 by ASNT, their process does that beautifully in my experience. That's why we support it and will continue to push our customers and students to use the process to be as fully compliant as it possible.

Just to be clear the cameras that we were saddled with here at our facility were supposed to come with third party training. We fell through the cracks and when the manufacturer realized it they sent a salesman in here and thats when he told us that he could have "anyone" train us to level 1 status. We are going to take the Snell course but our training budget for the year is shot so we must wait until next year. We are using our cameras and having good results right now. Thanks for the responses.

Regards, Dave Dane

the institute from which i got training is authorized by ASNT to provide Certification training . i have attended classes , gave a written exams and complete my 100 hours field work and after submitting the reports with images for 100 hours, i got this certificate.
so is it require to go again for Level-1 ASNT CERTIFICATION?
Mr John
Have u ever seen a Level-1 Certificate with written "ASNT Certified"? who is authorise to issue that one if it can be.

thanks & regards

Thermographer,
The training company CANNOT certify you to ASNT. You are supposed to present this to your employer, and provided this meets the requirements set out in your employers written practice, and that your employer has everything needeed under the ASNT scheme, then your employer can certify you in accordance with ASNT. Your certification is then only valid with your current employer (usually).

I rscommend you buy;
1 ASNT Standard for Qualification and Certification of Nondestructive Testing Personnel

2 ASNT recommended Practice No SNT-TC-1A

These are both available from ASNT and can be purchased over the web.

I may be incorrect, but Bob and John will catch me if I am,
I believe that under ASNT TC-1A 1998 ed. a company can use a 3rd party certification organization to certify that their employees meet ASNT standards IF the companies written testing procedures allow for third party testing (no level III on staff), if the testing facility verifies experience and training, the exams are given by a competent level III, and the exams meet the testing requirements for the company. If this is the case, then the testing organization should have received and reviewed the company's procedures and had them subsequently approved under their own level III (making them reviewed And approved by 2 level III's). They cannot however just give a cert test and say you're certified.

I am under the impression that you need some peolpe with higher level ASNT certs inside your organization in order to get your program ASNT compliant. Maybe.... a level 3? Not sure.

And there may be some ongoing testing and paperwork as part of the program - not just go get certified and forget it.

At least that's my impression from a few conversations....could be way off base.

Your right electric Pete, But a small company can contract a level III to consult on training, writing procedures etc.... he does not have to be a full time employee of that company. Without the level III contracted, a professional engineer can also write the standards. There are ways for new companies/individuals without a level III on staff to become compliant to ASNT standards, but they must meet these requirements. Rather than going in to all the in's and out's of certification, I believe educating the thermographers and the users on what the different standards are is a benefit to all of us. When I go to the doctor, I don't want a doctor who just graduated med school this year in general practice to be performing heart transplants. Thermographers who have no experience in the industry (meaning they are not electricians, constructors, engineers, etc) and who were flipping burgers 2 weeks ago cannot be considered a level I or II just because they attended class. I ran in to a used car salesman who was going to open his own infrared inspection company based on the sales pitch from a camera manufacturer telling him for the low, low price of a camera and a couple weeks class he would be in a demanding business making $1000's per day right out of the box. While we all know that this is an impossible situation and of course he felt that my opinion on the matter was biased because I was scared of the competition, these individuals are hurting themselves and the industry by providing false impressions to the clients. I have a major chemical plant near my home that went to using one of these individuals based solely on bid and because he is certified by two weeks class. Of course the bid was excellent, he was starving and needed the work, this facility had no one checking the required ASNT compliance documents (and this facility is supposed to require ASNT certification) and he is now performing scans with the covers on electrical gear (musch cheaper and faster!). When I tried to explain why this is not the option, I am taken as trying to discredit the competition rather than promoting proper inspections. This is exactly why an ASNT certification program is excellent for all. These types of incidents would not be a factor in properly trained thermographers. On a second note, I have sent new hires from my company to John Snell's courses and have been impressed with the great job he is doing. Keep it up John!.

Hi all,

Here is some information that I hope will clear up most misconceptions regarding certification as per ASNT SNT-TC-1A:

Firstly, there is no such thing as an ASNT Level 1 or Level 2 inspector. In order to be an ASNT certificate holder you MUST pass ASNT exams provided only by ASNT and no one else. ASNT only issues NDT certificates for NDT Level 3 and ACCP Level 2 and 3. For IR there is only ASNT NDT Level 3. Now there are Authorized Examination Centres who can administer ASNT exams to you, but these exams are directly from ASNT and you must get a letter from ASNT stating that you are accepted to sit the exam.

Now, SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification that ONLY your employer can give you. No one else can certify you to SNT-TC-1A. Not even a training institute. ONLY your employer can certify you.

NDT Level 3 individuals, whether ASNT, ACCP, PCN, SNT-TC-1A do NOT certify any Level 1, 2 or 3 inspectors. Level 3 individuals on "Qualify" personnel for certification. It is only the employer who certifies based on the attestation from a level 3 that the individual meets all the requirements for certification. That is what is meant by "qualifies".

So back to Employers.... Only they can certify their inspectors. But they need a Level 3 to qualify the inspector for certification. You need a level 3 for the following:

- Prepare, Administer, grade, correct certification examinations
- Approve the company's written practice
- Approve inspection procedures
- Be responsible for training inspectors
- To qualify inspectors for certification and re-certification.
- And other services.....

A Level 3 can be in-house or contracted out via a 3rd party. This must be stated in your company's written practice.

Now when it comes to initial certification as per SNT-TC-1A, a trainee must accumulate certain amount of working hours in order to be qualified for certification. This working experience should be under the supervision of a Level 2 or 3 or equivalent. If there is no one for the trainee to train under, then he cannot be qualified for certification.

Please note that almost anything in the SNT-TC-1A recommended practice can be changed to meet your company's needs. But it must all be stated in your company' written practice. If SNT-TC-1A states a recommended training hours of 40 hrs and you find it is excessive for your company, you can cut it down to 8 hrs or 16 hours. Just as long as it is in your written practice. Keep in mind that it must also satisfy your client's needs and requirements.

So to recap.. No school or training institute regardless of how much approval they have and how much exams they give you or how much labs they issue can certify an individual to ASNT or SNT-TC-1A. ONLY your employer can certify you and qualify you to work.

Training schools with Level 3 can qualify an individual as long as it meets your employer's requirements and here are provisions within your written practice. This is not certify.

I hope this clears up some misconceptions about ASNT.

Best Regards,

Sonny James
NDE Institute of Trinidad Ltd.
Thermal Diagnostics Limited
www.learnndt.com
www.tdlir.com

I almost forgot, there is also ANST Pdm Level 3 for IR. It is pretty much the same as ANST NDT Level (that is the method exam), but the difference is with the Basic exam. It is a Pdm basic exam that only covers Vibration and IR and not the other NDT methods such as UT, RT, PT, etc...

Sonny James
NDE Institute of Trinidad Ltd.
Thermal Diagnostics Limited
www.learnndt.com
www.tdlir.com

quote:

Posted 23 April 2008 12:47 AM Hide Post
the institute from which i got training is authorized by ASNT to provide Certification training . i have attended classes , gave a written exams and complete my 100 hours field work and after submitting the reports with images for 100 hours, i got this certificate.
so is it require to go again for Level-1 ASNT CERTIFICATION?
Mr John
Have u ever seen a Level-1 Certificate with written "ASNT Certified"? who is authorise to issue that one if it can be.

ASNT does not authorize any training institute to provide either training or certification. As I tried to say earlier, our training COMPLIES with ASNT standards and guidelines; even that, however, would need to be verified by a company's Level III. Some training programs fall short of full compliance.

As Sonny suggests, the Written Practice is where the exact requirements for certification are defined by the employer. We encourage our customers to comply as fully as possible, both in terms of curricula and hours of training and experience, but in some cases that is really not necessary for qualification for a limited task.

We have five people on staff who hold ASNT Level III certificates (either NDT or PdM) and often act as the Level III for our customers either until they have their own Level III or permanently because they are not large enough to have their own.

The Level III's responsibilities include developing or reviewing inspection procedures, training and testing Level I and II personnel, and determining what other test methods might be used in conjunction with infrared.

Again, in summary, under ASNT, it is always the employer who certifies at any level. ASNT does issue certificates at Level III but the employer must still certify that person within the company.

quote:

Have u ever seen a Level-1 Certificate with written "ASNT Certified"? who is authorise to issue that one if it can be.

Dear all:

Interesting thread. The following is a Tip of the Week regarding ASNT Certification that recently appeared at our content-based website, IRINFO.ORG.

Hope this is helpful.

Jim Seffrin, Director
Infraspection Institute

Infraspection Institute
IRINFO.ORG


Thermography and ASNT Certification

In his commentary, ˜The 35 Undeniable Truths', Rush Limbaugh states, "Words mean things." This is especially true in thermography when it comes to one's certification.

Certification has long been recognized as an indicator of a thermographer's formal education and/or qualifications. Certification can have significant financial implications since buyers of inspection services often base purchasing decisions on a thermographer's level of certification. Unfortunately, misstatements regarding certification, in particular ASNT certification, are quite common.

First of all, ASNT Certification – certification issued by the American Society of Nondestructive Testing - is only available from ASNT Headquarters in Columbus, Ohio. This certification program is designed to provide uniform testing and certification of NDT personnel that is ˜transportable' when an NDT technician leaves the employ of a company.

The use of the title, ˜ASNT Certified Thermographer' is incorrect since ASNT does not use or recognize the term ˜thermographer' in any of its professional designations. The correct term is NDT person or NDT technician.

Although ASNT does offer Level II certification in some NDT disciplines, they presently do not certify anyone below Level III in the Thermal Infrared (TIR) Method. Therefore, titles such as "ASNT Level 2 Certified Thermographer" or "ASNT Level 1 Certified Thermographer" do not exist except on the websites or advertising materials of companies who believe they have earned such titles. There are many examples of such citations ranging from infrared consultants to top executives at infrared equipment manufacturers.

Perhaps the biggest reason that considerable confusion surrounds ASNT certification is that some infrared trainers provide misleading information on this topic. Further compounding this problem is that many thermographers are imprecise when they represent their credentials. Few thermographers who do misrepresent themselves are rarely called to task by their peers or their clients.

Ethics within any profession demand that practitioners always represent their qualifications and credentials accurately. Because words do mean things, thermographers must be careful when representing their qualifications and avoid using titles that do not exist. Accurately describing your certification reflects not only on you but on the credibility of our industry as well.

The topics of ASNT certification and how to establish ASNT-compliant certification programs are two of the many topics covered in depth within the Infraspection Institute Level III Certified Infrared Thermographer® training course. For more information on course dates or to register for a course, call 609-239-4788 or visit Infraspection Institute online.